TV Versus YouTube - Where Does Your Show Belong?

Biagio: Hey everybody. She is joke. He’s Biagio. We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.

Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.

Biagio: Well, welcome to episode 68. And I would just like to kick this episode off by saying my wife joke looks really beautiful today.

Joke: Why is this coming from?

Biagio: I was just looking at you and I thought, oh, she looks so beautiful. I should tell her. Why not tell her in front of, you know, the millions of people who listen to our podcast.

Joke: Just so you can embarrass me?

Biagio: No. Just so I can brag about how hot my wife is, anyway. Speaking of hot, hot, hot hot, I want to talk about a very hot topic. Something that I’ve actually had a lot of discussions with people about recently, and that is knowing whether or not, you know, your show or your project is right for TV or for YouTube. And the thing is, you know, some people automatically assume one platform is better than the other or more prestigious than the other, or in the long term means you’re more successful than the other. The truth is, both platforms have their pros and their cons, and so I thought it would be great to kind of go through big Picture today why a project might work better for one or the other. You know, listen. And the fact is, a lot of times we get pitched shows that are just never going to work on TV. I mean, right. I mean, we’re TV producers, so people are pitching to us all day and we see a lot of pitches that, for various reasons, won’t work on a TV network. Right.

Joke: Yeah. I mean, you know, there’s all forms of entertainment. So, you know, TV is just a medium, right? So some work well on that medium and others just don’t.

Biagio: Yeah, and that’s exactly it. Just because something isn’t right for TV doesn’t mean that it’s not a good show, you know? And the reverse can also be true. You might be busting your rear, you know, on a really sort of ambitious YouTube series that really should be pitch to TV networks first, you know? So today we wanted to highlight the differences between the two and help you understand why you might choose one platform over the other. And to sort of give you a big picture of what we’re going to talk about today, here’s what we’re going to cover. First of all, three things to consider, which are potential audience size, ownership and economics. And then we’re going to also cover, you know, good shows for TV versus good shows for YouTube and pros and cons of both. All right. That sounds like an exciting episode, right?

Joke: I’m thrilled. Let’s bring it.

Biagio: Oh, man, I am jazzed. All right, so let’s start with point number one, potential audience size.

Joke: Okay. Well, TV shows, obviously they require a very broad audience, right? We’ve talked about this a lot, especially the broadcast networks, but even in cable, you know, they they hit a large variety, right? 50, 50 male, female, usually in the larger age range. Whereas YouTube show can be so niche and still be very successful.

Biagio: Yeah. For instance, I want as an example, I wanted to pick a world that can actually work in both. So I thought I’d pick phishing.

Joke: Because.

Biagio: You know so much.

Joke: About fishing.

Biagio: I know nothing about fishing. I don’t even know the last time I caught a fish, I think I was seven years old and it was an accident. Long story. Anyways, fishing. Pretty big world, right? So let’s look at two different show ideas set in the world of fishing. Okay. Idea number one a group of fishermen risk life and limb to catch crab in the most dangerous waters on Earth. Okay, idea number two. A world class fisherman teaches you how to fish. Okay, so I want you to think about those two ideas for a second. In today’s TV market, which do you think feels more like a TV show and which feels more like a web series? What do you think, honey? Well, let me give you the answer. In today’s market.

Joke: I thought it was a rhetorical question.

Biagio: Well, you know, listen, some people are listening to our show for the first time or might be new to this, so. Look.

Joke: So it’s just like learning a language. It was giving them time to answer.

Biagio: Oh, it was good. Hopefully by now they figured it out. Yeah. So in case you didn’t figure it out in today’s market, the first idea a group of fishermen risk life and limb to catch crab on the most dangerous waters on earth. Well, of course, that is the Uber hit Deadliest Catch. You know, it’s a high concept. High concept. Big steak show. And as of right now, 2016. That’s much more likely to end up on TV than number two. A world class fisherman teaches you how to fish. However, that second show, by the way, that second one, that’s a YouTube channel called Fluke Master. It has 109,000 subscribers and averages over 10,000 views per video.

Joke: And you’re their biggest fan.

Biagio: Why am now I just did a whole podcast on him, right? Look, I actually never watched the channel. I just went looking today because I thought, you know, we get pitched shows like this all the time, and I wanted I thought this was really illustrates the difference. You know, listen, 109,000 subscribers on a YouTube channel that’s pretty successful, you know? I mean, that is a that is a good, solid YouTube channel, 10,000 views per video. I mean, you know, with advertising and stuff like that can be a nice little, a nice little chunk of change. Not to mention that you’re building fans who you can sell merchandise to and a lot of other things, but 109,000 subscribers, that’s just that’s never going to translate to the big numbers that a TV show on a major broadcast or cable network requires. I’m not talking about like, hey, it’s the fishing network, I’m talking about the ans, the discoveries. And that goes of the world. You know, learning to fish is a niche audience. Show. Watching people almost die while trying to catch fish is a broad audience show, you know? And a lot of times people will pitch, will pitch a show, and they’ll be like, oh, this is so unique. There’s nothing like it on TV. And then they’ll put just a show that discusses, you know, the fine points of fishing lures or some such thing like that. You know, those ideas are too niche for TV, but they can be very successful on YouTube. It doesn’t mean it’s a bad show idea. It just means that TV is the wrong medium, you know? And by the way, on YouTube, your audience is going to be really passionate and loyal, something you don’t always get on TV. So that’s something to think about. Now I also want to mention here passion projects. You know, you might be really, really passionate about your ghost hunting idea. You know, that ghost hunting show that no one’s going to buy since everyone and their mother pitches a ghost hunting show. But you know, there’s nothing to stop you from going and making that show and developing an audience on YouTube. You know, something like old school travel shows. I mean, oh my gosh, we get pitched so many of those, even though we tell people not to pitch them anymore. But, you know, those old shows where like, people would, hey, we’re going to go to this hotel and talk about how this was such an amazing place and all the cool things that happened here, like TV networks don’t buy those shows, and if they make those shows, they’re usually developed internally and made for no money. But shows like that can still work on YouTube, because there’s people that like that kind of programing and miss the fact that it’s not on TV anymore. So, you know, a lot of those passion projects that we just keep telling you aren’t going to work on TV, there’s nothing to stop you from making them on YouTube. Now, I know you listen to that first set of points. You think, wow, millions of viewers on TV, you know, a few hundred thousand on YouTube. Maybe, if I’m lucky. You know, TV still sounds a little better, but I want to talk about this next point. Point number two ownership. This is important right Joe.

Joke: Yes. Everybody that pitches a show is always assumes that you you just own your own TV show.

Biagio: A survey said sorry I forgot to set that up. That just sounded like I farted out my mouth. I forgot to set that up with survey says. And.

Joke: Yeah, here’s the thing. The networks, you know, they’re they’re the big corporations there. They control the distribution. And and unless you have, you know, a bidding war between different networks that are owned by different conglomerates, because that’s another thing. A lot of the networks are owned by the same mother mothership. And then there’s no there’s no negotiation date. Pretty much decide. But if you’re lucky enough to get a lot of heat on your project, where different networks owned by different malicious are competing over it, then maybe you can eke out, you know, just enough ownership, or you can try and make a deal. But most of the time it just doesn’t happen. The network owns it, period. They own merchandizing to write, to sell the show around the world. They own the assets, which is anything more than $250. The show is there. So that’s how it works in most all of the cases. Unless your name is Mark Burnett.

Biagio: Yeah. Now, the flip side of that, right, though, you make a YouTube series, as long as you’re not taking money from anyone, you own the show, right? It’s yours. You make the money off the YouTube advertising, you can sell merchandise. You control where the social media links point to. It’s all you. If you decide to take funding from someone, you can negotiate the terms. You know, in TV networks, they just won’t negotiate with you. In almost every case, they don’t have to. Like Joe said, they’re the big, huge corporations. They own the means of distribution, so they’re not going to negotiate with you. But if you’re going to get funding for a YouTube channel, you probably have a little more wiggle room. So I have to say, and especially for all you entrepreneurs out there who think you’re going to pitch a show and own it, and then we break your hearts and we tell you that’s impossible. If 100% control and ownership is your goal, forget TV and look to the web in almost all cases. Now when you look at it like that, you might wonder what? Jesus man, why would you ever want to hand over your show to a network? I mean, why not just own it, right? Well, that brings us to 0.3 economics.

Joke: Wow, this sounds like a real dry podcast.

Biagio: Let’s discuss some economics here on the Producing Unscripted podcast. I don’t even know what what what voice that was neither. Economics.

Joke: So here’s what happens, right? If a network funds your show, you don’t pay for it. That’s the economics, right? They do. So if you’re on a good sized broadcast or cable network, you’re going to have a real budget. You’re going to actually you must hire real professionals. You’ll have a crew you need to do to make your show right. The network will handle, you know, advertising and promotion, social media, if you’re lucky, maybe, you know, you’ll get off net. They call that promotion on either a billboard or a magazine by or, you know, a bus stop. In short, you just have to worry about making a great show and the network takes care of the business of, you know, launching that show and all of that stuff. You can focus on the creative, that’s awesome. Now, if you make your own web series and you own 100%, that means you own all the bills to.

Biagio: Yes.

Joke: So that budget is all on you and you’re paying for everything. So not only are you paying for, you know, the shooting and the editing and making your great show, now you have to invest in the marketing, the promotion, the social media, talking with your audience, which, you know, you can either do all yourself, at which point it takes a lot of time and energy and probably, you know, spending money on materials where you can learn how to do all of this or you actually have to pay somebody else to do this. And either way, this will make you very, very, very busy with things that don’t have anything to do with actually making the show. So, you know, a lot of businesses, stuff that don’t involve like your creativity on actually making the show. So you’ll be spending money and time making a show, but then you’ll also be spending a lot of money and time trying to reach that audience. So yes, while you own everything, all the risk is on you. And for the most part, you know you’re going to end up with a smaller audience than you will on TV unless you know your video goes viral. But I mean, babe, how many videos a day get uploaded to YouTube?

Biagio: No, I know, listen, it’s a long term, you know, it’s a long term investment. If you’re going to decide to try and be, you know, a real, you know, really have a show on YouTube and really be successful. It’s also a long term investment to break into television. You know, I think both have their own pros and cons. I do want to point out one thing, though, joke that you mentioned that in most cases, it is true that you’re going to have a smaller audience on the web than you will on TV. But actually we know firsthand of an exception to that rule.

Joke: Yeah. I mean, here’s the thing. I think that if you’re creator, you have to go with where you’re, you know, where your strongest medium is. And so we did a TV show with YouTube stars Rhett and Link. It was called Rhett Links Commercial Kings, and it aired on IFC. And they had built a really good YouTube business. I don’t know when we did the show, I feel like they already had like a million subscribers or.

Biagio: Oh, they had, I think. Yeah, they had more than a million subscribers. They had over 100 million views. I mean, just crazy numbers.

Joke: So, so crazy numbers. And so they, they stopped actually, because, I mean, they literally put out like five videos a day or something and say now, but at the time, maybe a video a day. And so they had a roll some of that volume back to actually do the TV show, because we kept them pretty busy doing the TV show. Yeah. And so while they got paid on the TV show and while the TV show, you know, went on air on IFC and got views, it is nothing compared to the views and the money that they’re getting from YouTube. They are like one of the top five YouTubers of all time. I forgot what it was. Forbes or somebody just, you know, pointed out how successful they are. And again, like they’re the exception. But, you know, it proves that it’s possible. And I can tell you from experience, those guys work so hard all the time. They are so creative. They’re constantly putting out content. They have now built a great staff that works with them because they’re doing so much volume right now, it’s not possible for two guys to do it on their own anymore. So I mean, we’ve seen them come from two guys literally doing it in an office, in our office to now having the most beautiful studio in a great staff and and doing all this content. So, you know, massive success on YouTube is absolutely possible. Actually, one of our scream Queen two girls was also on that Forbes list.

Biagio: Oh yeah. Rosanna pansy. No.

Joke: Yeah. She also became a huge success doing nerdy cooking videos on the on YouTube. Obviously Rhett and Link are about comedy, so is absolutely possible. We’ve seen that happen to two people we personally know. But again, it is between the amount of videos that are out there and it’s just getting to be more and more and more videos to break through, you have to do a lot of work on the business end in terms of marketing, promotion, social media and all of that stuff. So it’s possible. It’s just really hard.

Biagio: Yeah, I think those are those are all really good points, you know, and stuff to keep in mind. So now I want to I want to take a second here and talk for a bit about good shows for TV versus good shows for YouTube. The thing that we remember about TV, whether it’s broadcast or cable, you know, any, any, any network that survives off of advertisers and sells TV commercials, shows need to have a high concept. They need big entertainment value, okay? They need to be entertaining first. You know, you’re not you’re not going to sell a TV show to a network that’s trying to teach you anything. Hey, here’s how you fish. For example, you’re definitely not going to sell a show that’s trying to share an important message. You know, let’s tell everybody how important this issue is. Nope, not for TV. Remember TV shows they entertain first, second, third and fourth. Anything else is a very, very distant fifth. Your TV show has a message to it. You’re going to slide it in. So it’s just barely there and nobody even notices. That’s how TV works okay, so it’s a big high concept for TV. That’s what makes a good show. All right. On the flip side, good shows for YouTube now. Yes, entertainment straight entertainment works on YouTube. Rhett and link. Case in point Entertainment tends to be a little bit more bite sized on YouTube. You know, I think for the most part, shorter content tends to work a little bit better. Yes, there are some experiments with longer content on YouTube, but for the most part, you think about videos that go viral, you know, and videos that are put out regularly, they’re a little bit shorter, you know, anything for niche audience is great for YouTube. You want to teach somebody how to do something. You want to teach them the finer points of fishing. You want to go in the basket weaving. You want to teach someone how meditation can change their life. You want to share a message. You want to share how important it is to empower you to be strong and you know and stand up for themselves. You know anything with a message, anything that teaches you anything. All that stuff is good for YouTube. Do not pitch that as a TV show. It’s not a TV show. Networks don’t want to pay for it. YouTube audiences will eat that up, you know? And like I said, while pure entertainment value works very well on YouTube, you know that niche stuff can really draw a rabid audience, you know, on YouTube. And that’s not going to translate to TV. You’re never going to take one of those little how to how to do this, or I’m going to teach you this. And, you know, the 109,000 subscribers they have on Fluke Masters, you know, that’s not going to translate to a TV show right now. But I guarantee you their viewers are passionate, you know, and they could probably find other ways to monetize those viewers. All right. So last but not least, pros and cons YouTube versus TV. So pros for YouTube. Look you make what you want. You make it how you want it. You own it. You’re the artist. You’re the boss. You do it your way. Right. Like that’s great. Start tomorrow. Why wait? You can be making you be making what you want. Tomorrow, right?

Joke: You are also liable for all the legal mishaps.

Biagio: Well, it was just about to get the cons, but let’s kick off cons with. You were also liable for all legal mishaps. You pay for it all, you know. You worry about the marketing. You worry about the distribution. Yes, you worry about the legal. You spend a lot of time doing things that are not related to making a great show, and that can be a real drag. All right. Pros and cons for TV. Well, pros. Hey, man, someone else is paying for you to make your show, right? They make sure it gets to an audience. You get to hire the professionals. You. You focus purely on making a great TV show. You know, they’re going to take care of making sure people see it. And also, this is an important point, right? Joke. Even when your TV show gets horrible ratings, more people are going to see it. Then probably will ever see your YouTube video or you’re documenting for that reason. You know, we did a we did a documentary called Dine and Do Letterman. We were invited to qualify for Academy Award consideration. We played sold out theater after sold out theater to standing ovations. Yeah. I think more people probably saw the worst rated episode of television will ever do. Then we’ll ever see Diana do Letterman.

Joke: Yeah. And I mean, it’s also hard, you know, when you do a TV show, they tell you two days later, this is how many people watched it, you know? But it’s like if you count up the 500 people in the theater, you know, for the. However many screenings you have, even if you say, I had 100 screenings, it’s like, okay, so that’s 50,000 people.

Biagio: And then, yeah, that’d be a really good theatrical run, by the way. For indie film.

Joke: And then maybe what you have, you know, people renting it on, on, on the, on Hulu or whatever it is, like, you know, you put it all together like, I mean, 100,000, 200,000. Those are, those are the lowest rated TV shows. And and that happens in one sitting.

Biagio: Yeah. Definitely been counting repeats. So if you I mean, if you want your work to be seen by the largest audience possible, chances are you have a better shot on TV than either the web or any other distribution. Yes, there are exceptions. Look at Rhett and Link. But playing the odds, chances are more people are going to see your work on TV. So there’s good and bad. The both, you know, and both are legitimate platforms that I really, truly believe should be chosen based on the content of what it is you want to create. Most importantly, there are people making real big money in both areas. But one thing that goes for both both the web and TV, and I think this is really important, is for either one to be successful, you’re going to have to work harder than you’ll ever imagine to be successful. I mean, no matter how hard of of of an uphill battle you think it is TV or web, I guarantee you it’s about a thousand times harder and you’re going to have to work your butt off either way. So, you know, I think knowing all that, knowing the pros and cons, knowing what shows work for YouTube versus working for TV, hopefully this is going to clear things up for you. And when we do reply to many of you that you know, your show is maybe more of a YouTube show than it is a TV show, you know, don’t take that as an insult. That’s not an insult. That just means that one medium is more appropriate for a particular kind of entertainment than another, you know? And they both can be super successful. So there you have it. Joke. Any closing thoughts? No. Well, all.

Joke: Right, that was all good.

Biagio: All right. Well, listen, thanks for tuning in to episode 68. As you know, when it comes down to it, we personally prefer TV over YouTube. As. We’ve worked very, very hard to now make. I guess. Yeah, over. Well over 100 hours of television, you know, not nearly as many YouTube videos. Clearly, there’s one that we’re partial to. And if you are interested in pitching TV, you know that we’ve made that very easy to do through our company Joke Productions, you know, and here with our podcast Producing Unscripted, all you need to do is head on over to Producing Unscripted. Sign up for the newsletter and follow the directions. If you’d like to pitch a show to us. And you know if you if you have something that we think we can be helpful in getting on TV, then we can team up and work together and and who knows, maybe we’ll we’ll all put a show on TV together. That’s the point of this podcast. But that’s it. Thanks for making 68 episodes possible. I can’t believe that we have so many listeners who continue to tune in. We want to say thank you to each and every one, and we’ll be back in two weeks with another exciting topic related to the world of unscripted television.

Unidentified Voice: See you guys in two weeks.

Biagio: Bye bye.

Unidentified Voice: Producing Unscripted with Joke and BiagioGeo.