TV Network Executives - What You Need to Know from Paul Croce

Announcer: Welcome to Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.

Angry Man: Is this some kind of joke?

Unidentified Voice: Biagio.

Biagio: Who did this episode? It’s episode 92, and TV pro Paul Cross tells you what filmmakers and producers should know about television network executives. What TV network execs look for in your pitching. The right and wrong way to prepare for your network pitch meetings. Who network executives answer to and how it affects you. Advice for people just getting into the biz and words of wisdom for all those. Biagio in Ohio. Music courtesy Dave Pelman. Music Dave Pelman. Com. Hey, everybody. She’s joke. She’s Biagio. We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.

Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.

Biagio: All right. Well, here we are, 92 episodes into this podcast. And for the first time ever, we’re bringing someone from the dark side. We’re so lucky to be here today with Paul Kroes, who has worked on both sides of the business. He’s worked in production, but he’s also worked as a television network executive. He was over at VH1, where we briefly worked together on a pilot some time ago. He’s also spent a lot of time at TLC, and today he is going to share some really awesome points from the point of view of someone who’s been a TV network executive and maybe even answer some of our questions, because honestly, sometimes I don’t know what’s going on on that side of the table. Yeah, I didn’t either, but let’s.

Paul Croce: Get that right out there right now. I didn’t either.

Biagio: So so that’s a really good point. I mean, listen, I think people look at, you know, you guys, TV network execs, and we basically see God’s. We see golden gods. It’s like we’ve ascended Mount Olympics and there you are. You know, you’re like Zeus.

Paul Croce: Well, it’s probably cause so many executives act like this. Odds that that happens, but.

Biagio: Well, you were a you were always one of the nicest executives we ever worked with. And and a lot of you really are very nice, but I think it’s like, you know, a lot of people have misconceptions. And have you found out that people have misconceptions about how much power or how exactly being a TV network executive works? I mean, tell me a little bit like you’ve you’ve been on both sides of the table. What are some misconceptions people have about TV network executives? Well.

Paul Croce: Misconceptions is an interesting way to put it, I think. I think everything you’ve said could apply to to one executive or a couple executives. And then there are some people that are like the nice guys, and then there’s some people that are in between. And it really for me, I can speak to my experience. When I went to VH1 in the first place, I sort of fell into a network executive job, which doesn’t happen a lot. A lot of people do want network exact jobs. They always say like the Kush network job, which it can be at times. But for me, I was hired at VH1 actually to be part of a think tank approach to bringing ideas to the network from an internal perspective, like having someone there that generates ideas. And I had come from a game show I was writing on. A game show was my first writing job, and so I thought, well, that’s the logical next step. It’s it’s VH1, it’s a network I love, it’s pop culture. And turns out internal think tanks don’t work that often at networks for reasons that would require a whole other podcast. But I, you know, knowing that you winter, when you’re in a position, you sort of figure out how to make that job work for you. If it didn’t, if the old job doesn’t seem to be connecting, and I sought out current production, like people that were that were making the shows already less development, more like, this is the show that’s been greenlit. Let’s go make it. And from that point on, I still did development, but I segue into overseeing series and making sure that all the all the, you know, cuts were coming in and that they were looking the way VH1 wanted them to. And so my experience. I, like I said, I fell into this job a little bit and I learned so much being there. And to me, especially at VH1, I had amazing leadership there and really, truly like the best bosses I’ve had in this business. And they taught to trust producers and to let them make the show. And it was okay to say no notes. Believe it or not, like that was something that we were taught and told. And that is not always the case with networks, as I know.

Biagio: I know. That’s so nice to be empowered to say, hey, the show is working without notes.

Paul Croce: Yeah, it was really wonderful. And it made those first initial production company relationships that I made that much more genuine because producers looked at me and looked at my team that people that I worked with and said like, oh, you guys, you guys trust us to go and make the show. Which is crazy to think like we you paid for the show and now we can go make it. But that is that is not the norm. Often, unfortunately, people are micromanaged. And also I think like the goal line is move. Sometimes there’s all these things that happen along the way. And going back to your question, there are probably people who have had different experiences that now works because they might not have had that leadership. Their leadership might have been a little more, where’s the hit? What’s or my favorite thing is what’s the show? You know, that sort of response to a cut coming in? It’s like, well, that’s the show. But they just showed you was that’s what they think the show is. Do you want it to be something different if you do? What is the as I always got a one of the best notes I ever got as an executive was, do not give a note unless you have a suggestion on how that person can fix it, whether or not they take that suggestion, that’s not the point, but at least tell them that you’re thinking enough to to give them a suggestion of what you would do. And I think there are a lot of places that are just like, why is it this instead of saying, well, we want it to be this, and this is how we can do it together as a team?

Biagio: That’s amazing.

Joke: A lot of times when we deal with networks, we think of the network executive as like the end all be all, you know, I mean, you’re the client. We’re trying to please you. You paid for the show. Hopefully if we do a good enough job, you’ll promote the show and then maybe we can get some viewers going. Yeah, but look behind the curtain for a little peek behind the curtain. What masters are you guys serving as the executive? Like, you know, you’re a lot about. Oh, network executives have to deal with politics, but, like, what is that really like behind the scenes? What do we as producers not really see?

Paul Croce: That’s a great question for me. At both networks, I learned very quickly that it isn’t just that person who you report to that that for me was the, you know, the GM of the network or the so many titles. But the person that I report to is the person who is in charge of programing and development. And I go with my idea and from there it kind of it was different in both networks, but it it disappeared from my hands like once. Like if, let’s say for development, like I took a pilot or a presentation and I delivered it, it would then go to a meeting. And in those meetings it was met with research, and it was met with advertising and ad sales and oh, gosh, legal and all these other departments, that would then all of a sudden way in on this really fun pilot, like the ones that I made with the one I made with you guys, that all that I felt, this is great TV, this is something that’s going to fit VH1. But then in that room behind closed doors, maybe a lawyer said, well, what if a window breaks while we’re shooting? Is this a good idea? Has like risk management says that windows break a lot. So should we maybe rethink this? Like, that’s a little bit of an exaggeration, but those are conversations we weren’t privy to. But I knew that they were happening. Now. Once it got to series, then we were brought in more. And if something like, you know, one of the shows that I EP to VH1 was Audrina and that was the spin off of The Hills. And at the time, VH1 was very interested in bringing that voice to the network, like that kind of demographic that Audrina fit. And so ad sales, marketing, branding were all very involved with how we push this show forward. And it was really interesting to see what goes into that, because at that point I was like, oh, this is great. This is one of my shows. One of my shows makes it it’s it’s good for me. Spoiler alert the show didn’t make it. You guys didn’t see the first season of Audrina. It was a really good show and everyone worked their butts off on it, and it was pretty dramatic and good reality TV. It just didn’t register. But the muscle that went behind it from everybody in all these departments was really exciting to see. There were billboards and there were things that like, and this was a show that was produced with MTV, was a pilot that was produced for MTV, and MTV had passed on it. And then I knew about it, and I was like, maybe we should talk about this for VH1. And that’s how it came to be. And so it was exciting to see that all come. And now it’s a series. And I didn’t have a ton of those experiences. But yeah, when they when those departments get into it and they see that there’s potential there, they put their muscle behind it.

Joke: So when you’re in a pitch, hearing an idea for the first time from a producer or production company, you’ve had your PTSD of the bad experiences and the glorious Audrina experience where you really see the muscle, the network and put behind this show. How do you listen to a pitch like, do you keep that in mind? Do you think about what’s research going to say? Or ad sales can get behind this? Like, like tell us how from a network executive you hear a pitch?

Paul Croce: Well, that’s that’s another great question. And I think my experience from VH1 to TLC was dramatically different in that sense. Both made a lot of sense, but they were very different. And VH1, I think there was a little more of a we didn’t have as many holes to fill as I say, like there weren’t a lot of opportunities to get a show on VH1. It was we were programing for certain nights, and there were only 3 or 4 nights during the week, and they were very specifically like one was a pop culture night, one was a female night, and these different swings we were taking, but they were programed out for a year in advance before someone could get something into a slot. Where at TLC we were always they were like six nights a week and we were always hitting was at weddings or was it subcultures or was it.

Joke: Big families?

Paul Croce: Big families, like those things were always we’re trying to find companions for. And so when I was in a TLC pitch, I would probably know within the first 10s how it was going to go. Because when you have a brand like that and TLC is a very protected brand, it’s very family friendly. It is, you know, people leave TLC on in the background, so they want to make sure that there’s a certain like safety there. But behind the programing, it’s resulted in some different experiences and shows. But that’s what they go for and that I knew what those parameters were at all times. And I was always we were always doing research to find out what our audience was craving in those sort of buckets, as they say. So I knew very quickly at a pitch at TLC, much less so of the H1, VH one I was, I think I said more like, well, maybe, maybe that could be something unusual enough that would register at TLC if there was a certain thing off of the Just Say. And I tried to be diplomatic with producers and always wanted them to keep coming in with stuff. But as you guys know now, even like and this was probably three, 3 or 4 years ago, it’s changed so much. Every network has their brand now. They have their filter, they have their research. And a show that you make for for one network isn’t even going to work for the next closest one. The show for VH1 does not work for oxygen for one reason, and the show for oxygen does not work for TLC for another reason. So networks always want stuff. But if for you to concentrate on 40 different networks and have something for each of them, you wouldn’t get your actual shows done.

Biagio: Yeah, no, it’s a really good point. And so what do you say to like okay, there’s there’s different types of producers, for instance, that we’ve teamed up with or that we’ve seen go on and sell their own shows. So if you’re whether you’re somebody in the in the middle of my hometown, Cleveland, who has no connections to Hollywood, you know, or you’re someone who’s been in LA for a while and you’ve worked at a few productions and put some shows, what’s the best way for them to come to you? I mean, is it worth it for them to come in and pitch to you? Is it better to attach a production company, or are you really going to let the guy from Cleveland? Are you going to hand him several million dollars to go produce a show? Yeah.

Paul Croce: So guy from Cleveland should definitely keep pushing and keep working. I don’t want any of this to come off in a way that’s like, this is impossible to do.

Biagio: Well, no, I was.

Paul Croce: A guy from..

Biagio: Yeah, I knew nobody.

Paul Croce: And so you’re so.

Biagio: If the hours of TV later.

Paul Croce: Yeah. And so I would I mean you guys have shared on the podcast your insights and I respect and I think everyone that’s listed like go back and listen to you guys have really I’ve listened to so many of your episodes and I really feel like you’re providing great, great insights from the, the one I just listened to, as I mentioned, was the how to write a one sheet. That alone, if you listen to that, everyone listening here, and you actually take that advice and you are then to reach out to a company like joke, then I think you’re doing it right. I think that’s the way in. I think for you to go directly to the network, you’re going to fall on deaf ears. Unfortunately, I think that most people we always talk about real screen as like that opportunity for networks. And Joe Joe was his name.

Biagio: Joe Joe Joe.

Paul Croce: Joe Cleveland.

Biagio: Joe Cleveland I. Just Joe person Cleveland. Biagio from Cleveland 20 years ago. You know that’s the opportunity.

Paul Croce: Where like interfaces can happen naturally. There are those like 30 30 minute lunches or speaker sessions. As someone who sat through a few of the 30 minute lunches, no offense to any of the Biagio from Cleveland. I didn’t want to be there. Like, I’m just being totally honest. Real screen from a network perspective is a slog, you guys. It’s really, really challenging. It’s 30 minute meetings stacked on top of each other for a full, two, full, three full days. Everyone’s sick, everyone’s cold, everyone’s in a bad mood. I don’t know why they haven’t figured it out yet how to make it different. But then you go to this lunch where I actually I love mentoring, I love talking to people that want to get into the business. But even in that moment, I was like, I just want to eat my lunch. So even with the greatest idea coming at me, it probably wasn’t the best opportunity. Now, if they came through you guys and they and you were also come in and say, like, we met this guy who, like, gave us this one sheet and he is so passionate about this talent, especially if he has talent. Like that’s what everyone’s like. And he, he knows this guy that is a baker and he’s the funniest baker you haven’t seen like since Chef Duff. Then it becomes part of your pitch too I think as I say, like we we and you guys are amazing in that sense that you reach out to people and you really try to garner like, work with those relationships, with people that are trying to get into the business. I wish more people did because it’s a hard business to get into. And as someone who cracked his way into somehow, I look for people that are willing to lend a hand. I think it’s great that you guys do that. So I think long winded around it really is finding that company that you feel comfortable with, and you have proven to them that you care. You can’t, just as you’ve mentioned a few times, like you can’t just show up and say the challenge like it’s a show about people on an island and they the twist is they’re married.

Biagio: Like every.

Paul Croce: Idea has been pitched, unfortunately, at this point. So it’s now this is going down a different road a little bit. But how to make your idea distinct and unique is also a huge part of this. It is what is the thing that you are bringing to the table 15 years? We can probably say now into reality TV, where we’re kind of in a tough place. That’s going to make my ears perk up and make me go, oh, that’s new, that’s different. I haven’t heard that yet, and that could be something conceptual. But right now it tends to be more talent based, I think. And I hear through the grapevine that, like much more, many more networks are looking at formats now. But even when you hear that it’s not just taking the perfect example is something like 90 Day Fiancé, where you could you could have said, oh, why isn’t anyone done mail order brides? That’s a good show. That’s not what that show is. As you guys have said, it is point of view and it is authentic and it feels like an experience. It’s not just a standard sort of ten year ago reality show. We now have to make people feel like they are there in the experience and not just watching from above, like you really have to. It’s catfish. It is Morgan Spurlock. It is making people be part of this experience. That’s what’s going to that’s what keeps pushing reality TV forward and true crime.

Biagio: Yeah yeah yeah. No it’s really well said.

Joke: And yeah I mean there’s definitely a return which we’re excited about to the authenticity of everything to, to you know, as documentaries have become quote unquote more popular. That kind of storytelling is, is thankfully making its way back into reality, scripted reality. It’s awesome when it’s done right. But the problem.

Biagio: Is real people who are also great actors. It’s really hard. And that is.

Paul Croce: That’s the key point is, you know, we’ve done I’ve worked on a bunch of sizzle tapes for networks where we have found the perfect cast by virtue of just like pounding the pavement calling. I mean, we’ve even gone on Instagram and looked up hashtags to find these people that fit what the network want to see. And you get them in a room, or you get them on Skype and they can’t read a line to say them save their lives. And to your point, like it’s it’s a talent. People like I’ve referred to reality talent as Tom before to people outside of unscripted. And they laugh. They’re like, how can you call them talent? I’m like, you don’t get that.

Biagio: Is.

Paul Croce: A talent to.

Biagio: Be able to.

Paul Croce: Go on camera and show, like produce a story, which we are definitely writing sometimes for people to, to, to embody and make it look real or as real as possible. That is a real talent. That’s not something I don’t think I could do, even like even having seen it for.

Biagio: So long.

Joke: Even in most of the doctor’s, it’s like, okay, maybe we kind of outline it, we know there’s going to be a party, and then stories unfold and then, you know, all of that could be real. But if we need a few lines that we need to pick up to help make sense of that story, but now these people can’t deliver a line like you just said. It just it falls to pieces, you know?

Biagio: Yeah. But also, I think, you know, back in the day, I talked to producer who was working on Laguna Beach, which preceded Hills and that, that whole thing. And they had the rule of thirds. They said it was basically they had one third that was kind of scripted, and in one third that was sort of outlined in one third that was complete total. Whatever happened, happened. Yeah, it was chaos, but it was cool because, you know, there was still like there was still real, even though the real in that equation have only been 33% in those kind of shows, they were still leaning on it. And now I don’t know what your experience has been.

Paul Croce: Well, I also I don’t my as a producer. Now I’ve come back to the producing side and as a writer and I like to conceive of formats. I like to work with a clip show sort of like mentality where like, this is the information you want presented. Let me help present it in an interesting way. And to that end, I mean, I’m just like, it’s the I love the 90s that we used to always love. I love those types of shows. That’s what I like to write. That’s why I like to produce game shows, that sort of thing. But as a viewer, I am a Housewives junkie. That’s my go to. That’s I won’t even call it a guilty pleasure, because I think that does a disservice to what that show has become. And every one of those has its own set of percentages, I think. I think you have an Atlanta where those women are producing themselves without much help. I mean, I could be wrong, but there’s there’s enough in those interactions that I think.

Biagio: See.

Joke: But.

Biagio: Here’s.

Joke: Where I, I 100% agree with you. And I have the same thing to say. Like, you know, when you look at some of the Kardashians or some of that stuff, when you look at the early seasons of those shows.

Biagio: They feel very produced.

Joke: Even Housewives of Beverly Hills, okay, these women were clearly put together and it feels so awkward and whatever. But now over the years, they’ve literally formed these friendships and frenemies and these things. And so they’ve, in their weird cosmos, almost become way more real, which is I think now it’s like that is some excellent television, if you like the soapy drama.

Paul Croce: And the narrative has shifted where like the the things that are happening outside of the show, the banter that happens on us, we like, it’s reached a new level where it’s become real gossip. And so now that’s feeding from another place that they’re responding to. I heard on this blog, it’s very it’s getting meta, but the audience is I always thought that that’s when the audience would break away. But the audience, I think, craves that moment that like I read that on that blog and that’s what she’s talking about, like she’s.

Biagio: But now it’s real. No. It’s real.

Joke: Before it was like, can you find something to be mad.

Biagio: At her? Exactly. You don’t know. Oh, they’re mad and they don’t like.

Paul Croce: Yeah, they’re waiting to like they’re waiting.

Biagio: For.

Paul Croce: Their seasons to come back so they can get their stuff. And I would also say to the other thing that has changed, as the Housewives seasons have proceeded in a major way, is the editing. What happens in posts on those shows? Those editors deserve Emmy nominations. There is more comedy being cut on Housewives than I think most standard sitcoms on CBS right now. I laugh harder. Real Housewives of New York is actually my my go to like that’s the number one for me, and I have no shame in saying I laugh my.

Biagio: Butt.

Paul Croce: Off at those episodes because those editors are cutting for comedy. And that’s a difference, I think, from old seasons, too. They’re still cutting for drama, but the drama, like you said, is happening naturally. You just put a camera on, they’re.

Biagio: Going to go. There are.

Paul Croce: Brilliant comedy moments happening on the house of all housewives, of all, all cities that I think. I think there should be a light shined on that. I think those editors are given like are given the credit.

Biagio: They’re do okay.

Joke: So kind of wrapping it up in terms of producers, production companies, you know, us preparing the pitch to bring to you the network executive, I always say you know your audience and know the network. Where can we go to find the buzzwords, the things that will help us really tailor it for you?

Paul Croce: I think to that end, and this is just me also as a producer now it’s going starting at that network’s web page and watching the shows that they have on air first, so that when you call the network, you can have an informed conversation and say, oh, I just watched series A, B and C, and I can see you guys are doing this, and in that moment they might correct you right away and say, actually, no, because that one got a point too. So we’re actually staying away from that right now. So you know, right off the bat, okay, I’m going to avoid this thing that they just told me that buzzword to stay away from, which might be at that time.

Joke: And that’s why.

Biagio: The.

Joke: Style of Cleveland should try and team up with the production company. Those are the conversations we are having with network executives or, you know.

Paul Croce: And I would say before they even come to you, they should go to that web page and they should be watching so they can come to you and say, like, be informed. That’s one thing that frustrated me at TLC especially, is that people would come in and say like, oh, it’s, it’s it’s prison wives. And I’d say, like, what? On air looks like prison.

Biagio: It’s a great.

Paul Croce: Show, but what on TLC? And we always at the same time said, bring us everything, show us everything. But I would have liked sometimes to hear, I know you guys aren’t really doing this right now. You want to take a swing? Prison wives. Something that just like, leads into why you’re pitching it to me at this network, as opposed to it being, like you just said, like a pitch that can’t go to ten different places, but you can cater that pitch in some way to that network before the first call. And they’ll often tell you, you know, it’s going to be a variety of, not for us, send me some paper or send me the tape. Or best case scenario, come in and pitch me. And if you get in the room, that’s your that’s like most times I rarely moved forward or tried to get something up the chain that I hadn’t heard or seen in the room. Having that face to face of the producer does give you that extra sort of advantage, and shows that the producer care enough to bring it in and really tell you why it works for you as that network based on things that you’ve told them.

Biagio: Totally.

Paul Croce: So that would just and that makes sense.

Biagio: So it. Makes total sense and it’s great advice and it’s you know, it’s so funny when we started this podcast almost three years ago now, three years, I don’t know, it’s been a while. One of the first ones we told people is you have to watch TV, right? The thing is, it’s only gotten easier now. You can just stream it. Yeah. I mean. Every network has like a streaming app, right? Have apps? Yeah.

Joke: Like just so easy.

Biagio: I mean, when we were getting ready, we recently took a pitch trip to New York and we obviously we get really busy, so we can’t always watch TV live. But we were streaming everything for every network we were going to meet with, you know, watching all their shows, you know, and I think it’s only gotten easier to do that research in the website. You point out it’s a, it’s a it’s a great point. Like what the buzzword that they’re using at their website, probably at least at some point it was right for them. It might have just changed. They might be going a new direction, but it’s a good place to start. Yeah.

Joke: And sometimes, you know, networks have a lot of shows, but the websites show you which ones they’re promoting.

Biagio: Yes, that’s a great point. And you can just.

Joke: See like, oh, they’re really putting.

Biagio: Their pushing.

Joke: Behind this one. And you know.

Paul Croce: And you could even like sort of cross-reference by going to a website like TV by the numbers and seeing what is actually working for them. It might maybe it serves you not to bring up that latest point two and just move on from that, but say something like, again, it just always goes back to showing an interest in that network that you’re pitching. Because I didn’t really get that a lot. I didn’t get a lot of people that were like, oh, it seems as though TLC is trying stuff on Friday nights that’s outside the box, or wedding dresses that would have been like, oh my God, you thought that? That’s great. Tell me more like, what else is intriguing to you? And it it’s hard. It’s it’s funny because it’s been so long. It’s been there. But it’s bringing me back to that feeling, like, because.

Joke: It’s a very adversarial relationship. Even if we need you to buy and we’re all.

Biagio: Like, oh, yeah, it’s so nice to.

Joke: Hear the thing. The truth of the matter is, it’s like in success, we both win.

Biagio: Absolutely.

Joke: So it shouldn’t really be that adversarial. It should be more collaborative and like, okay, what can we do? What are you looking for? Yeah. Let’s help each other. Because again, in success, we have a successful show. You look good at the network for having put the successful show on the air and everybody wins.

Biagio: Yeah.

Paul Croce: And I think now going back to the network side to one thing that they should remember about producing too, is that producers are working their butts off to get things done for you all the time. Like, I do think that there are times that some network executives might say like, oh, we’re never working with company A again because they just turned in the biggest piece of crap. Remember, that’s not the only thing that they’re producing. They’re producing 15 other very low budget sizzles for 15 other networks, and they’re doing their best. Everyone’s like putting in everyone across the board. Everyone’s putting in double the amount of work right now for less the amount of money. Let’s all just sort of give each other a big group hug and get back on the same page. And remember that we’re all trying to make TV. At the end of the day, none of us. This is not brain surgery. We’re not saving anyone’s lives. Believe it or not, the 230 email can wait until 830 when everyone’s had their coffee. Don’t give. I mean, you know, like, look, we don’t need ulcers. We all just.

Biagio: Need to make.

Paul Croce: We’re all just here to make TV.

Biagio: Exactly. That’s a great way. Well, thank you so much, Paul. Thank you. Paul, whose last name I’ve been mispronouncing for years and had no idea. I’ve always called. Him Paul Croce. For those of you listening, it’s not. It’s Paul Cross. It’s probably. Yeah. We’re like, BHO got it wrong. I can’t believe Paul didn’t correct them.

Paul Croce: Let me say for the record, it is Paul Croce. Can I throw in a shameless plug? Yeah, please.

Biagio: Yes. And please. We cannot without talking about Paul’s podcast.

Paul Croce: I’m sorry, reporting a podcast as well, because we all have podcasts now. We have to.

Biagio: Which is beautifully recorded, by the way. I didn’t even know until today. It sounds wonderful. It’s amazing. Please tell everyone about it and where they can find it.

Paul Croce: It is called Wigs and Weiss. The wigs are what we most of the time where while recording. But since you can’t see us, we’re not always. And the Weiss is wine with ice in it. I have not if you didn’t know what Weiss is, it’s kind of like, you know, it’s wine with ice. I didn’t know, and we. It’s a pop culture fest, for lack of a better word. But we get in with our rants, our raves, and a little fun in between. We do a segment almost every week called Troll Patrol, where we are calling out the people on the internet that are saying the meanest stuff.

Biagio: Nice.

Paul Croce: Because I think it’s the time to shine a light on those people that like to hide behind their nasty things. And but it’s a lot of fun and we put it out almost. It’s every week, but usually somewhere between like Wednesday and Thursday.

Biagio: So weekly you guys are impressive. I barely can hang on to two weeks. Well it’s amazing. Where can people find it at?

Paul Croce: It’s on Stitcher and on the Apple iTunes. ITunes. Thank you.

Biagio: It’s called wigs.

Paul Croce: And white wigs and Weiss.

Joke: How can people get Ahold of you if you want them to get Ahold.

Paul Croce: Of you? We have an Instagram and we have a Tumblr, but the website is wigs and y. Great. And you can find us there. And our Instagram is wigs and Weiss on Instagram.

Biagio: Fantastic.

Paul Croce: And we have Facebook too.

Biagio: So great. We’re gonna play that all over the show notes, which you’ll be able to find at Producing Unscripted nine two. Since this is episode 92, and when I put the zero in front of it, joke made fun of me. But when we get to 100, it’s going to make a difference. Yeah, that was three.

Joke: Years ago. I didn’t.

Biagio: Think.

Joke: We’d still be doing it.

Biagio: All right, well, thank you so much. Paul was so awesome. Thank you. All right. For those of you listening for the Biagio in Cleveland or anybody anywhere else, I think, you know, part of the reason we started this podcast is not just to share our experiences, but if you would like to pitch to production company, there is a pathway to pitch to us. Just head on over to Producing Unscripted. Sign up for our newsletter and follow the directions. There are some hoops to jump through and yes, it is a test. So. So don’t call the offices and be like, I can’t figure out how to pitch to you. That’s hilarious. And yeah, we put the hoops up, you know, because we’re not looking for one liner, looking for people who really want to work in the business and who love this. And we’ve met a lot of really good people over the years. But that’s it. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in. We’re going to be back in two weeks with episode 93 hurtling towards 100. I think we figured out what we’re going to do for 100. It’s going to be something.

Joke: I have no idea, but he’s looking at me like I’m supposed.

Biagio: To talk about this. I’m not going to spill the beans.

Paul Croce: It’s like she doesn’t.

Biagio: Know, I think, or she really doesn’t want to do it, I don’t know. She’s fading memory loss.

Joke: But it’s one of those things you kind of pitch. And I was like, are just gonna pretend I didn’t hear that.

Biagio: Well, everybody stay tuned.

Announcer: Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.