Stop Ruining Your Pitches: Top Tips from Stephanie Palmer

Announcer: Welcome to Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.

Angry Man: Is this some kind of joke?

Confused Woman: Biagio-WHO???

Announcer: This episode….

Biagio: It is episode 28 and Stephanie Palmer who took over 3,000 pitches at MGM tells you how to get your pitches noted. Why you need to sell more than just your idea in a Hollywood pitch meeting. The most common pitch mistake you do not know you are making. And my in-depth hard-hitting interview style forces Stephanie to admit.

Stephanie Palmer: I can identify those two things as different body parts.

Announcer: Music courtesy of Dave Pelman Music, davepelman.com

Biagio: Hey everybody, she is Joke.

Joke: He is Biagio.

Biagio: We are married and we make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same hopefully by teaming up with us. Well it is episode 28 and this is a big one, right honey?

Joke: It sure is.

Biagio: We are so thrilled to have none other than the famous Stephanie Palmer of Good in a Room joining us today. Hello, Stephanie.

Stephanie Palmer: Hello.

Joke: It is so great to have you.

Stephanie Palmer: It is my pleasure to be here.

Biagio: Well, I got to tell you. First of all, for people who have been living under a rock and do not know about Good in a Room or Stephanie, Stephanie was the Director of Creative Affairs for MGM. While she was there, she heard over 3,000 pitches so she knows a good pitch from a bad pitch people. She purchased over 25 screenplays and hired more than a hundred writers so she knows a thing or two about the business.

Some of her projects that you have heard of are movies like Legally Blonde, The Brothers Grimm, Agent Cody Banks. Before that, she worked for a little producer you might have heard of named Jerry Bruckheimer and films like Armageddon, Con Air, Enemy of the State. But her first movie was like a small independent film about a boat or something, right, Stephanie? What was that called again?

Stephanie Palmer: Yes, the first movie that I worked on was Titanic.

Joke: Oh Titanic, oh right. That was not an indie film. That was directed by James Cameron. Well, she also wrote a book published by Random House called The Good in a Room, How to Sell Yourself (And Your Ideas) and Win Over any Audience. And runs a blog by the same name Good in a Room which is a must reading with anybody that wants to work in the entertainment industry.

You can start there, she even has a free e-book that she is giving away right now so you can get a free taste of the great advice she offers. You can learn all about it just by going to goodinaroom.com.

And the only thing that I have to ask you, Stephanie, is clearly with a resume like that, you must have been born in Hollywood where people just handed you career opportunities, right? And that is the only way to do what you have done, right?

Stephanie Palmer: That sure would have been a lot easier. But no I was born in Iowa and no one in my family works in the business and my grandmother who is 99 who I just went to visit in fact, still asks me like when am I going to leave that sinful place Los Angeles and Hollywood.

Biagio: That is so awesome. Obviously a lot of people who listen to the podcast and probably read your blog live outside of Los Angeles. I am from Cleveland, Joke is from Belgium, you know what a hotbed of entertainment opportunity that country is. And a lot of people think, “Oh well if you are successful you must have known somebody. You must have had an in.”

But the three people right here, sitting here today, talking to everybody listening can tell you, no, you can come from Iowa, you can come from Ohio, you can be born in Bruges, Belgium and find a way to work in the industry. And that is part of what I really like about your approach overall Stephanie. You talk to writers, a lot of your advice is aimed at writers but so much of it works for anyone who wants to work professionally in Hollywood. Having met so many newbies over the years, like what were you seeing again and again that made you go, oh people need help.

Stephanie Palmer: When I was an executive, I started to get really frustrated with the types of movies that we were making because we were getting tons of screenplays submitted and I was meeting with lots of different people but I knew that there were better ideas out there. They just were not being pitched well enough for me to be able to present them to my boss or to actually just break through the system to be able to get to my desk so I knew there were better ideas out there.

And there was one person in particular that was this guy named Mike who had come in and pitched a really great project to me but he was so nervous. He was sweating. He was uncomfortable. I just knew that he seemed too green that I could not put him in front of my boss because my boss would be like, “No way, this guy is not a professional, we are not buying his script. We are not working with him.”

But there was just that one thing, I really was interested in his project. He had such a funny voice that was rare and I just thought, you know what I’m going to see if I can coach him and see if there is a way because what do I have to lose? See if there is a way that he can improve so that I could have a meet with my boss and then maybe we will get to buy this project.

So I spent the afternoon with him telling him what he should say, calming him down, practicing. The guy came in the next morning met with my boss, did amazing, totally nailed it in the room, and my boss bought the project.

And so it was that guy, Mike, that later after the deal was done he revealed to me that he had been sleeping on his brother’s couch for the last three months, and was getting ready to move back in with his parents because basically he put everything on the line to move to Los Angeles and just could not make it work and because of this one deal it really turned his life around. And that was a big moment for me where I thought this was super satisfying. The project was totally worthwhile.

He is now a big TV writer and I thought this is what I want to do with my day and with my work, it is help as many writers as I can to break through in that way.

Joke: And I think it is fascinating too because having pitched, but also getting pitches either from people through this podcast before or previous lives as showrunners and working as assistants, or that in the business you are right. You keep seeing these people make the same mistakes over and over and over again and it is just like, it is not necessarily rocket science but there are some key things that if people really practice on and get really good at, it can make a tremendous difference.

And I am sure you have seen that with feedback from your blog, and your books and stuff a lot. The stuff you are saying, it is all really good helpful advice that sometimes we forget, is not readily out there for people.

Stephanie Palmer: And a lot of it frankly is common sense but if you are doing something for the first time, it is understandable to be nervous. There are a lot of elements of the TV and film business where if you just do something really small, which seems so minor but it sort of gives a clue to the decision maker, oh this person is a rookie, they do not get it, they are too green, and people’s attention switches quickly from oh I am listening and engaged then maybe this is something to, nope not for me I am going to pass.

Joke: And I think that is one of the key things that you are just saying is that people always think it is just about the idea, it is just about the idea but film and television are very collaborative mediums and even as buyers, you are looking for partners, right? And so that is kind of the big thing that you want to be able to trust that that partner is going to come through with what they are pitching in.

Biagio: Do I want to spend maybe years in the trenches with this person sweating bullets across from me?

Stephanie Palmer: Exactly. So people think a big myth is that a great idea will sell itself. But we know that that is not really the case and that we have seen over and over that so much of a meeting and getting that opportunity to pitch is a chance to say, “Do we have chemistry?” “Can we have a conversation?” “Do I like this person?” Can I trust them that when we are in the trenches as you said and things are all going wrong, is that person going to be able to deliver on what they say? Are we going to be able to solve this problem together?

Joke: Yes, and we have had the same experience and I am curious to see if you had it too where you actually have a meeting with someone and their idea maybe is not the right timing or it is not quite ready, but you really like the chemistry you have with the person. You feel like you have a creative understanding and the back and forth and so then you go above and beyond to find the project to do together.

Stephanie Palmer: I absolutely and that goes from both sides. That maybe the specific project that you came to pitch was not right at the right timing, the right place but then you remember the people. And they will either call you and say, “Hey, we are working on this project, could you guys come in and tell us your take?” or do you have an idea about how to handle this. And same way for you guys saying, oh we love this, we have got to find something to do with them. Oh we just heard those new wonderful things or we have this new idea, let us make sure to go to them first.

Biagio: And now here is the great thing, I guarantee you we have some listeners out there right now that are freaking out and are like oh my gosh, I just heard a thousand things I have no idea how to do, I am going to blow every pitch meeting I go into. Well people, rest easy, I have to tell you there is no better free resource anywhere on the Internet because trust me, I have looked. There is no better free resource on the Internet than goodinaroom.com, Stephanie’s site.

If you want to get your head around the right way to pitch, the mechanics of pitch, how not to blow a pitch meeting, Stephanie has got it for you. You should go to her website. You should absolutely read her book Good in a Room but this will prepare you so that you don’t the blow the big chances and we have seen people blow these chances. And now, I just tell people you really need to go visit Good in a Room and you will be a million percent better tomorrow.

Joke: Well, let us talk through some of those points.

Biagio: Yes, what I did is, because first of all you should just read Stephanie’s whole blog but I wanted to pick out a couple of specific posts that speak the things that we see on a daily basis and drive us bonkers. So this is me being selfish because now I am using Stephanie to cure you people from suffering mistakes for us over and over again.

The first post I wanted to talk about and this is a big one. It really is because to me it automatically screens amateur, it is a post called The Most Common Pitch Meeting Mistake That You Don’t Know You’re Making. So Stephanie, talk a little bit about this one.

Stephanie Palmer: Okay, so this is a big one and it is so common that pros do this too. It is not that this never happens but the most effective way to pitch is not to tell the decision maker in some way how they should feel about your project and that is doing things like making a production about how financially successful this project is going to be like. This is going to be a big hit. It is going to make a million dollars. You are going to be number one on NBC or whatever the predictions are about success I hear all the time. I am going to win Best Picture Oscar.

And you are like, really you are going to win a Best Picture Oscar? You do not want to give a positive opinion of your own work. It is something like, I have a great idea for you or I have an amazing project. This is something that happens all the time but what you are doing is subtly trying to tell the other person how to feel.

And unfortunately just like every parent who including me, thinks their child is brilliant. Every dog owner thinks their pet is adorable, you are expected to be a fan of your own work but you do not want to tell the decision maker how to think or feel about the project, you want to let them make their own decision because they will.

Biagio: Because honestly when someone walks in and says, “I guarantee you the show will be a hit,” I am like, “Oh really, you have the formula?” Because no one else does. Thank goodness you walked in today because I have been trying to figure out how to put hit shows on the air for years.

Joke: Yes, let us bottle that and sell it to every network.

Stephanie Palmer: Exactly.

Biagio: I know that it comes from a place of insecurity. I know it comes from a place of like I want to impress but really all it does is say, “Okay, what you have accidentally just done is alienate anybody who has ever spent any time working in the industry because we all tried to put hit shows on the air.” And it instantly makes you look like you do not know what you are talking about.

Joke: But even like you said, I have a great idea for you. I have an amazing project for you. While I appreciate the passion, frankly it is doing the opposite of what you want it to do because you have now raised the bar so high for yourself that you are bound to fail. Because anytime someone tells me I have an amazing project I immediately go, “Oh really?”

Stephanie Palmer: Right, instead of just letting the project speak for itself.

Joke: Exactly, exactly. And also, let the buyer find something that they are excited about. I think that even in the conversation, you see the buyer is very much responding to a certain aspect of the story or a certain character or the world. We have always felt that it is good. When we have conversations with buyers, it is to let them take ownership of how it works for them or how they see it might be working for their boss, their audience and that kind of stuff.

It is important to present a fair and accurate picture and then it is within the conversation. You see someone gravitating to that then I think it is a little more easier to express your own opinion like I also really respond to that part of it or that is part that inspired me to start this project in the first place. But I would never start a pitch with a big, grand statement because you are setting yourself up for failure.

Biagio: My personal favorite is, “This show is guaranteed to be a hit on everything from NBC to Nickelodeon toSspike the true TV to Lifetime.” Oh my gosh, okay. So I want to move on to another great post that you have. Actually I think Joke you can speak to this.

Joke: Yes, this is as part of your 10 Commandments of Pitching in Hollywood which we really like but just focusing on your number nine which is “Thou shalt not argue the point.” Please feel free to expand on that one.

Stephanie Palmer: Yes. Basically something that happens so frequently and too frequently is that when someone actually gets a meeting with a potential decision maker and the decision maker has heard the pitch or read the project and then they have a note that the writer starts arguing the point, and saying why the decision maker is wrong. Now this is one of the easiest ways to not have your project get considered and I have one, if I can share a quick story about one of the worst notes that I ever heard and one of the best ways to handle it.

One of my clients who is a writer was going in to pitch to this major mega movie producer and he had a romantic comedy that was to star someone like an actress like Kate Hudson. He is going along, he is pitching his romantic comedy and the producer interrupts him and says, “Okay, I want you to keep everything the same but change the female lead to a male chimpanzee.”

And my client, instead of saying, “Are you insane?” which would be a totally reasonable response to this said, “Hmm, that is something I had not considered.”

Biagio: I mean, they had not thought of it before that moment.

Stephanie Palmer: They had not thought of it, surprisingly. But he kept it cool. He said let me think about it. He worked on a take. They left the meeting totally cordially. He worked up a take. He came back taking the producer’s notes. That deal got made and he got a subsequent deal with the same producer and now has enough clout because he has two deals with this major producer that he can start to get more of his projects made.

So it was simply, instead of telling this person that this was the worst note he had ever heard, he took it in and re-thought about it and was able to convert that into two deals and now has a career.

Joke: Yes, and this brings me to one of the sayings that we say a lot around here which is, you may not win the battle but you are fighting the whole war. Right?

Stephanie Palmer: Yes.

Joke: It is the idea that you have this opportunity to meet with this producer. This is your chance to get your foot in the door. Do not fight a battle on one note when like your client, you can make a good impression and that producer goes, “You know what, this is someone I want to work with.”

Even if the deal gets made and halfway through development process, oh my god the chimpanzee thing was stupid, let us kill it. At the very least he is like but this is someone I can have creative conversation with and we can work together. And so exactly, do not argue everything.

It is also, to me, very really rude frankly because we are taking time. The buyers are taking time to hear your pitch. You can attest to it. You are sitting in these pitch meetings all day long. People think it is an easy job. But it is hard to stay creatively sharp to just keep hearing the same bad pitches over and over again that it is like when you are responding to something, you know what, there is something here, I really like it. But I would do X like with the chimpanzee.

It is like you want someone who at least will say, “Thank you so much, let me think about that.” instead of being like you know what, forget you and walk out.

Biagio: Well yes because again in our business if we sell unscripted television show together, we can be working together for years. In the feature film business, it takes years just to make one movie. You just want to work with people you want to work with. And then if the first meetings are contentious, what is it going to be like 10 years later, holy Christ.

And one more post I wanted to point out in your blog, Twenty Things You Should Never Do on a Pitch Meeting, and I wanted to talk about number 13 of this list of 20. All of them are great, but number 13 – Starting with an Apology. Please Stephanie, cure this ill.

Stephanie Palmer: Well it is saying do not say anything like, “Oh I am not good at pitching or I am not very experienced,” because the thing is even though that feeling is absolutely normal, by starting a pitch meeting with an apology the decision maker is already going to be turning off their brain or this can often be just a deal breaker simply by saying something like this right in a meeting.

While it feels really challenging especially because so many writers are naturally introverted that is why they like writing, that they like to express their ideas on paper at home by themselves. And to be forced to go into a meeting where they are pitching an idea out loud to strangers and trying to sell it, is a hard thing to do for many people but the good news is it is a skill that can be learned.

With practice, this is something that absolutely can get better and I can promise you now that I have had this consulting business and worked with many super, super high level TV and film producers, writers, and directors that even at the very top. After people have Oscars and Emmys, they still have feelings of insecurity. They feel inexperienced. They feel like oh the studio head is going to find out I am a fraud. Those are totally normal feelings but you do not want to share those at the beginning of a pitch meeting.

Joke: So much of what we do, as an actor you may have to go in front of camera and it is like you are there, you look and how you act, but as creatives when we are pitching, we are also being vulnerable in a sense that this is an idea we have worked on. This is something that we are passionate about or something that we have spent time on and so you have to get comfortable with a certain level of vulnerability in that. And just accept that that is part of the gig and to apologize for it, it is like you said, it puts the buyer immediately in a different space of mind than you want them in to hear your pitch.

Biagio: Yes and now I am going to sound like a total A-hole producer for a minute and that is okay because I do not mind representing that voice since it is a reality of show business. Which is that if I get the sense that I am going to have to hold your hand and be your therapist, and I think as you mentioned in your course your surrogate best friend through this whole process we will never get anything done.

If every day, every other day, every other hour with some people, I need to be stroking your ego and making you feel better and boosting up your confidence, we are just not going to get anything done. So you kind of have to take care of that part of yourself, yourself.

Stephanie Palmer: Yes, outside of the pitch meeting, there are wonderful therapists. There are consultants. You can talk to your friends. You can practice. You can talk to your family. There are so many other ways that you can build your confidence in pitching and it does not mean that you are going to one day wake up and say, “I am the best pitcher in the world,” and never have these feelings because it is totally normal to feel anxious. Especially when you are pitching something that you deeply care about and you have put a lot of energy and time and you really are invested and you want that person to love it.

But just making a simple change of not starting with an apology can make a world of difference.

Biagio: Just not apologizing for your lack of experience will help you immensely and I feel like it happens constantly.

Joke: And I think this comes back to, all of these points come back to the idea that when you get that meeting, when you get that opportunity to pitch, it really is an opportunity and 10 years from now, people may look at that moment and be like, “Wow you are so lucky, you got into that room and that launched your entire career.” But you have to make your own luck because once you are in that room, it really is up to you to do these things to really come in prepared and to do the best sales job you can do.

Biagio: Exactly. Stephanie, I want to ask you really quickly, are there a couple nuggets of advice that you would offer to just about anybody who wants to work in Hollywood.

Stephanie Palmer: Well, one thing that I would say is that something that differentiates pros from amateurs particularly in the writing world but applies to directors and producers as well is that often people who are just starting out think that learning how to pitch or developing a pitch for a project happens at the end of the development process, like after you have already written the script, after you have already shot your pilot episode. But I suggest that you develop the pitch right alongside your project that you are constantly getting feedback on the main idea and thinking about how you are going to sell it.

And I know that you guys do these brilliantly, you would not buy a project if you did not have an idea about how you are going to sell it. But that mindset is very different for a lot of people who think, oh after I spend six months writing the script then I will figure out what the pitch for this project might be.

Biagio: That is so important.

Joke: So important it’s developing your project with the buyers in mind, correct?

Biagio: Yes.

Stephanie Palmer: Exactly.

Biagio: Listen, luckily, if you are a screenwriter, I mean you basically, you spent six months of your life writing a screenplay that maybe at the end of it you realized “Oh crap, nobody wants this.” In our business, we have had people spend six months of their lives and 100,000 dollars on their credit cards shooting a pilot or a presentation that is never going to go anywhere. They are never going to see that money again.

That is why we are always like, “Please, especially on unscripted television, do not waste your money on something that might not have a chance.” We have tried to make it easy for people that at least run ideas by us before they would go and do something like that.

But if you do not develop your pitch early on and figure out if there is a market for it and then you are one of these people that decides to spend every credit card you have making something, more times than not, in fact I would say 99% of the time, you end up in a really big financial hole and with nothing professional to show for it.

Stephanie Palmer: Yes, that is such a heartbreaker.

Biagio: Alright, so let us move on to another nugget of advice from the fantastic Stephanie Palmer.

Stephanie Palmer: So my next nugget is the best time to sell a show is right after you have sold your first project. My suggestion is before you take out a project, you want to have at least two or three ideas that are in a similar genre already developed. So agents and managers know that if they are taking out a new screenwriter or a new show and they are introducing this person to Hollywood, that if the project sells, that everybody else in town there is this brief moment of heat and you want to take advantage of that. So the prepared professional already has additional ideas and additional projects in that same genre developed.

Biagio: Yes. That is another great point. Because when people pitch us a show and again more times than not, they will pitch us something that is not necessarily right but if there are good film maker. If they have gone and they have made an inexpensive piece of tape, not the 100,000 dollar heaps we are talking about earlier but they have shot some interviews, they have some footage and we see that they are serious about working in this business, the first thing we say is what else do you have going on? What else are you looking at?

And they do not even necessarily have to have more tapes ready to go at that moment, they just have to show us that they are the kind of person who is out there and looking because in our business the turnaround is a little bit quicker than it is in scripted but it is the same principle. It is like, let me know that you are not a one-hit wonder.

Stephanie Palmer: That is what I think. To me, very quickly you can discern if the person you are talking to is thinking I just have this one idea and I am planning to cash it in like a lottery ticket and this is going to make me a zillionaire based on this one idea which virtually never happens. To burst everyone’s bubble. Or are they the kind of person who says, “This is the thing that I am really passionate about. These are the TV shows that I watch, every single one. I read these kinds of books. I love these movies. This is something that I want to pursue professionally for the rest of my life.”

That is a different kind of person. That is the person that I want to be involved in and most professionals want to work with. They want to work with that person who is invested for the long term and has lots of ideas in a particular area.

Biagio: Yes absolutely. Alright, you have a number three. You got one more magical nugget that we can share with our audience right here.

Stephanie Palmer: Super simple pitching tip but just remember, the more you say, the less they hear.

Biagio: That is a great one.

Stephanie Palmer: I have never heard at the end of a pitch, “Boy, I wish they talk longer.”

Biagio: So true, so true. And that really comes down to just, I would imagine everything you teach on your blog which is you want to feel confident in yourself, in your idea. You want to know what you are pitching, you want to be able to give them exactly they need and no more and if you have all those things lined up, you are not going to talk too much, right?

Stephanie Palmer: Exactly. You are going to be prepared and you are going to be able to go with a meeting as Joke was saying where you can follow along with a conversation and go where the decision maker or the buyer, the areas that they are interested in. And that is a really effective meeting instead of someone who has everything perfectly scripted, 25 minutes of exactly what they are going to say as a monologue rather than having a dialogue which is a much more effective way to pitch.

Biagio: That also comes back to what you were saying earlier about Hollywood is a collaborative medium. I do not want to think that I am working with someone who is just going to never shut up. But I want to think that I am working with someone who I am going to be able to converse with over the course of the project, over the course of many projects where there is a back and forth, not “Oh my gosh, when is this person going to stop talking?”

Joke: Yes, but the dialogue is also part of the test as a buyer, right? It is like I am testing to see how well you have thought this through and I may throw out hey, have you thought of this and seeing how you react to that is part of what I am going to base my decision on.

Stephanie Palmer: Exactly.

Biagio: And that brings us to your Pro-Writer Course. It is something that you have been building for a long time that is now available and I have had a chance to spend some time with it. I will get into that in a minute. I want to be really clear to all of our listeners because this is not something that we do a lot on this show.

As a matter of fact, this may be the first time we have ever actually talked about a product that we really believe in. Something that we think is great. And so why do you not tell us in your own words about the Pro-Writer Course, about what it is and why you put it together.

Stephanie Palmer: Well, so what we have talked about already on the podcast are a lot of things not to do in a pitch meeting and a lot of these things are quite simple to enact. That if you simply do not start with an apology, for example, that can improve your pitch. But there is not so much about how you actually do pitch and how you can create a sustaining and successful career.

And so that is what this course is, all the things to do and sort of a step by step process, some of which takes time and effort and energy to make smart career choices, to have a strategy for getting in the room and to actually know how to pitch your ideas once you get there.

And so there is a lot that goes into being a successful writer other than writing and I find that there is a lot of great information out there about how to write, the technical aspects of writing, and what to write but not so much about all the other aspects of what goes into being a successful writer. And that is what I put together in this course.

Joke: And I think it is important too for our audience to know, because Biagio and I always call ourselves storytellers first, right? Writers and unscripted producers we all have to understand stories and then part of the selling, part of the business of show business is in being able to sell that story and get other people excited about it.

So even if you do not see yourself becoming a professional feature length screenwriter, we think that there is a lot of good tips in here when it comes too not just storytelling but then how to sell those stories in an effective way.

Biagio: Yes. And I think you lay out some big picture goals in the beginning of the course and I really think the course delivers on these goals. I mean you talk about you want people to be able to project confidence, be seen as a pro, get hired and sell their material. And that is really what we all want and I think that your course is not only valuable to writers but it is valuable to anybody that finds themselves needing to pitch and sell anything including themselves.

Stephanie Palmer: Thanks, that really means a lot.

Biagio: What are the best points and I tell people this all the time and I do not know why it is that people have this fairytale idea about Hollywood. Maybe it is because Hollywood is so good at putting out fairytales but people think showbiz is a get-rich-quick scheme. Is it a get-rich-quick scheme, Stephanie?

Stephanie Palmer: Absolutely not. Though there are people who do make it rich and buy beautiful mansions in Malibu and live a very high lifestyle. There are plenty of people who do that, the vast majority of people make decisions over time and start building their careers step by step, project by project, new script by new script and it is over a period of years that they are able to build a sustaining and a potentially very lucrative career.

Joke: And it’s one of those fairytale Hollywood puts out, the discovery overnight, you go from your client sleeping on his brother’s couch to all of a sudden you are the big Hollywood screenwriter in demand. I mean without naming numbers, obviously your client made a couple of good deals but that does not mean all of a sudden he is living in mansions in Malibu, correct?

Stephanie Palmer: No, absolutely. He is getting the writer’s guild minimum which is approximately a little under 100,000 dollars at that time, which once you take out his agent and his taxes and joining the writer’s guild I think he probably made about 43,000 dollars which is plenty. I am sure very few people would turn away a check for 43,000 dollars but when he was, I am sure at that point deeply in debt and had nothing, 43,000 dollars is not suddenly buying your Maserati and the trip around the world.

Joke: But also and I think people forget that that is 43,000 that has to last him, right?

Stephanie Palmer: Oh yes, oh yes.

Joke: I mean you do not get 43,000 every week.

Stephanie Palmer: Right.

Joke: So some writers now have to live off of that 43,000 for a year, or maybe two years before they see that next 43,000 dollars.

Stephanie Palmer: Exactly.

Biagio: Yes, and so this is one of the reasons why I really wanted to publicly endorse Stephanie’s course and you all know we are not in the business of selling products, we personally are in the business of making television, that is what we do. But there is so much, I am just going to be politically incorrect for a minute, there is just so much garbage out there. There are so many products out there that are put out by people that have never worked in the industry that…

Joke: And there is consultants out there who are charging insane amounts of money to, honestly, without any experience to back it up and are just fleecing people who just want a shot.

Biagio: Well, even in our business, we will get calls and how much are you charging for this consulting. I am like we are not consultants.

Joke: It is a free podcast.

Biagio: We are TV producers. We are just happening to share the information and I think that what Stephanie, first of all, what she has done is she built a career for herself in Hollywood after coming out of Iowa. She has worked with some of the biggest names. Again, she has heard thousands and thousands of pitches and she has helped people sell their ideas. She is the real deal.

The course is not inexpensive. It is not the most expensive course in the world. It is not the least expensive course in the world but I do think the information in there is priceless. We are going to have a bigger write-up about Stephanie’s Pro-Writer Course at producingunscripted.com/pro-writer and again Stephanie, I cannot say this loudly enough, I wish that more people who actually did what it is they teach would teach.

You are one of those rare people, you have done it, you have been there and now that you have been successful, you are taking the time to put together a course where most of these things we see are courses from people who honestly do not know their butt from their armpit. So thank you for knowing your butt from your armpit.

Stephanie Palmer: You are very welcome. I can identify those two things as different body parts.

Biagio: And a heck of a lot more. I want to mention one last thing, just as an interesting side note, I know that you are a big fan of Save the Cat and the late great Blake Snyder and one thing that I think is really interesting, our documentary Dying To Do Letterman, which won a lot of awards and did really well in the festival circuit got a theatrical distribution through Oscilloscope which is hard to do with a documentary.

Stephanie Palmer: Congrats. That is huge. That is huge.

Biagio: And that is why we brag about it, unashamingly.

Stephanie Palmer: That is not easy to do. I can second that, my goodness.

Biagio: But I will tell you.

Joke: It is very easy for Biagio to brag about it.

Biagio: Very easy, yes. But I will tell you and I think this is of use and it is more use for documentaries for like a feature doc than it really is for an episodic television, but the first thing we did when we knew we had an ending for that documentary, I do not want to say what the ending is for people who have not seen it. But the first thing that we did because we had about five and a half years of footage, literally hundreds of hours of footage and hundreds and hundreds of scenes. I sat down with Save the Cat and I used it as a brainstorming tool to figure out what we had.

What were the real life moments that would fit into, not only the hero’s Journey which is also something that I love but that could fit into Blake’s paradigm, Save the Cat paradigm and it was so helpful to sorting through all that footage.

Joke: Yes, and it is not just figuring out what we had. It was also figuring out, as we say, you have to throw out some babies where it is like we have this great scene but I do not really need it in the overall story, or it does not really fit and feels like a complete side track. And so any kind of structure stuff like that was super helpful in helping us not just figuring out what we were missing and then we had to go find it but really it is like there is no place for a certain scene.

Biagio: And I bring that up because Stephanie while focusing on pitching and making you the best pitcher you can possibly be, also offers great links to other story advice and this was just one thing that I connected on. But remember unscripted television still tells a story and that is why resources and knowing about great people like Stephanie and her blog goodinaroom.com are invaluable for anyone listening to this podcast.

Joke: And also the fact that this is show business which means it is business and in business there are sales and she is teaching you how to become a better salesperson. So right there, we think it is tremendously important.

Biagio: If it is not clear, we are fans of Stephanie Palmer.

Stephanie Palmer: I really appreciate it. It has absolutely been my pleasure.

Biagio: Remember everybody, you can read our write-up of the Pro-Writer’s Course at producingunscripted.com/pro-writer. And that is it. This has been episode 28, a jam-packed super-duper episode with Stephanie Palmer. That is a wrap.

Joke: Thank you everybody.

Stephanie Palmer: Thank you.

Announcer: Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.