Shopping Agreements for Reality TV Concepts

Biagio: Hey, everybody. She’s joke. He’s Biagio. We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same. Hopefully by teaming up with us. All right, well, first of all, thanks to everybody who was patient with us. As you all know, we put a little hooky two weeks ago. We were a little busy. Yes, I also am suffering from seasonal bronchitis and I may cough a lot during this episode, which means, fortunately for all of you, you get to hear a lot more of my wife’s lovely voice. Well.

Joke: It was much worse two weeks ago. You’re feeling a little bit better already?

Biagio: I’m feeling much better. I’m on a lot of a tailors. I don’t know, they gave me, like, seven different inhalers. I don’t know, it was a mess. Anyways, we’re back. And what we did was those of you who were on our newsletter. No. We reached out and said, hey, what we’re going to do is we’re going to take some questions from all of you that we’re going to answer on upcoming podcasts. And we were so pleased to get so many questions, far too many to answer in one podcast. And I think that we will be doing some of these in upcoming podcasts. But one of the ones that we wanted to start with today, we got a lot of questions related to shopping agreements, and we picked two of them that we thought we would answer today. A shopping agreement is essentially the agreement that you do with a production company. When you have a concept and you’re going to team up with that company and you give them the right to pitch the show. So let’s start with the questions themselves. The first question comes in from Kevin Hanna, who writes long time listener, first time caller. Thank you. Kevin, I know my question is late as he just emailed us earlier today, but it just occurred to me how long is someone normally locked into a submission agreement before they are free to shop their show elsewhere? Now, Ryan Murphy also wrote in with the following. What is the right amount of time to give a producer to shop your show to the networks? I had a known successful producer shopping my reality show to the major networks. We had a six month agreement in place. At the end. He asked for another six months. I wasn’t sure if I should have my idea tied to this one producer for a year, so we agreed on two additional months. My show did not get picked up, but now I am seeing other similar shows being advertised. Should I have just given him more time? Should I actually be part of these pitches to networks, or is it standard for my producer to handle it on his own? We recorded some sizzle reel stuff, but the rest of the time I was just sitting around waiting for feedback. So a couple of good questions. And the second one has some multiple multiple questions in there. Honey, I’m going to let you take it from here while I catch my breath.

Joke: Okay. Well, first of all, oh, I don’t know where to start. Okay. So let’s start with the definition. I guess some of these people have referred to some of these questions referred to as submission agreements, some to shopping agreement. Biagio referred to it as a shopping agreement. Other times it could be referred to as a collaboration agreement. So a submission agreement in in our world is a little different. The submission agreement just tells you pretty much any, any people that are submitting a pitch will sign a submission agreement. Right? It gives it’s like an agreement in relation to the submission of a project. Now, if you team up with a producer and you’re giving that producer the right to go and shop your project to distributors, meaning, you know, financiers like networks, that is usually called either shopping agreement or collaboration agreement. They’re both the same things. The big question that both of these are asking is what is like a standard term? It’s usually about a year, 12 months seems fair, but a lot of times it depends on the materials that you are bringing to the project and how much more work needs to be done on it. So, for example, if it’s just a concept and it’s like, oh, I have these people that I know in Chicago that would make for a great TV show, and we team up on this together, and it requires us to come to Chicago and to do more research into film and then to edit a sizzle and all this stuff. Then we’ll most definitely ask for a 12 month agreement. If you come to us with, you know, a sizzle, you’ve edited yourself and we think there is not a ton of work to be done on it, and we feel it’s ready to take out to market right away. We might agree to 6 or 9 months. Here’s what you have to understand a lot of times. Well, I say all the time this is about what’s the right timing. And so while we might really like a project, or any producer out there might really like a project and team up with you, we may know, like, right away, that it’s like, you know, this I really shouldn’t be taking this to market in the next four months. Either one is not ready or to we just came out of, let’s say, a big market like Reel Screen or we just came out of something else, even though we don’t necessarily have seasons in unscripted television, there are still times that are better than others. For example, if you bring us something in September or October, I can tell you right then and there. We probably won’t be pushing it until the new year because not much get done in November or December, so things like that automatically can add months to an option agreement. So shopping agreement, collaboration agreement, whatever you want to call it. I think another thing to keep in mind is, and I think this is kind of what it comes down to, we believe that whoever you team up with, it really needs to be about that relationship. You need to feel comfortable that this is the right person to to shepherd this project with you, right? Either you guys agree on the creative, you feel like, you know, because of the experience that that producer or that production company has, that they have those contacts that they’ve worked with, the networks that you see that show selling to, they can get, you know, pretty quick feedback, which by pretty quick could be a couple of months, by the way. But, you know, it’s not somebody who will be calling, you know, the intern over at discovery to try and see maybe in two years they can get a meeting. Right. So so you have to to team up with people that one you feel comfortable with. It is a business relationship. And just like any relationship, there needs to be trust. So part of that trust is, you know, are these the right people creatively to, you know, create further materials? Are these the people that I trust when they tell me, hey, now is not the right time? Let’s wait a couple of months before we go out and pitch this. You know, Ryan Murphy mentioned that after six months, the producer, his producer, asked for another six months. I don’t know what that relationship of trust was at the time. What or not? You believed that extra six months was doable? You guys negotiated two months. Maybe those two months weren’t enough. Maybe the fact that you didn’t want to give him the extra six months made him less, made that producer less excited to be really trying to sell your project. Who knows? But but it has to be. I think most of these shopping agreements that work out for the best is when there is like a healthy relationship, right? One of trust in terms of, you know, how much time should be given. Again, it depends on the project, but it also depends on, you know, what’s currently out there. What we’ve always said is a show that we’re pitching now that’s not selling. It might sell in a year. I mean, it’s it’s happened to numerous of a, a couple of our projects that we’re actually in production right now that, you know, actually we went out with and then, you know, a year and a half later, the network calls us and was like, hey, do you still have that project? Because now I’m ready to do it. So we always say, like, listen, if, if in the option period, we have not set up the sale, but we still have a good relationship, we would ask that, you know, listen, if we get the call from the network or if we think the time is right to go out with it again, is, you know, checking to see if you’re open for that. And we’ve done that before and that has worked out that that has worked out well. I would say the biggest thing to find out from whoever you’re teaming up with is in the option, period. Who has the project been pitched to? I think it’s very important, especially if you’re not happy with the relationship and you’re trying to walk away from it and possibly set this project up with a different production company, is the first thing they’ll ask is who saw it and when did they see it? Like I said, sometimes networks change their mandates or people, you know, get fired and or leave and new executives come in. So well, one producer may have pitched it to one network, you know, in January, if that network goes through a big change, it might be a good place to pitch it again in November or December. Sometimes, if nothing changed about that network, you really shouldn’t be pitching it back there for probably 2 or 3 years, depending on what changes. So again, this is where you kind of have to rely on your producer and see if you can build that relationship with trust. Because if you’re not talking to networks every day, you might not be in the loop on those things.

Biagio: So and just to clarify the reason, you might wait 2 or 3 years to pitch it to the network again, if they just said no to a piece of talent or a general concept, they’ve just seen the tape, they’re going to automatically say no when it comes through the door. Again, they’ve already said no. A new production company and even a new tape is unlikely to get you a yes at a at a network that has just said no. So you need to realize that once you’ve gone out with a show, when people have seen it, it doesn’t necessarily do any good to take that idea and team up with another production company, unless they’re going to take it to completely different places, like jokes at.

Joke: Yeah, and I think this might be tough to hear, but we’ve had people who have, you know, set up, made their own sizzle, set up pitches at different production companies. That production company was like, oh, this is good to go. We’re just taking this out right now. We’re going to spend none of our time, none of our creative energy, none of our resources in updating the state or making it right, or reframing the pitch so it becomes more salable. We’re just going to take it as is. And that probably feels really good at the time. But then when you get a bunch of nos. You know, okay, now, now you’re done and your project is dead for a while. We, you know, then those people sometimes bring the project to us and we look at the tape and we’re like, listen, this tape is all wrong. But you are right. There is a show here somewhere. This just isn’t the right show. So when you’re talking to a producer, just because they say, oh, wow, this is good, this is great to go, let’s go out and sell this. Now, that’s not always the best answer for you or your project, you know, so you really should do your research and ask the right questions about what is it about this tape that you think will sell at what network, etc., etc.. So I’m sorry, just pointed at something.

Biagio: Oh well, just the part he asked. Ryan also asked about should I be a part of these pitches to the networks. I was just sitting around waiting for feedback.

Joke: All right, well, this is the hard news. This is like, let me just rip the band aid off. Yeah. Listen, when we first started and we pitched a show and we teamed up with a production company, that production company went out and did the pitches without us. And, like, we felt hurt and we felt excluded. And we’re like, why aren’t we allowed in those rooms? And but to be honest, now, being on the other side of it, networks just look for reasons to say no to shows. And when they see a production company walk in with, you know, extra people that really aren’t going to be asked questions in the room or aren’t going to be a part of the network, isn’t really going to be able to rely on them. The deal is going to be made with the established production companies. It just muddies things up. We’ve taken certain people in on certain pitches because we felt they could add something to that room, or there was a specific reason to. But again, don’t take it personally if if in that initial stage you’re not invited, whether you’re on the other side of the country or whether, you know, maybe that that producer has a really good relationship with that executive and is kind of pitching 3 or 4 projects, so it would be not wise to bring you in. Maybe they’ll end up pitching it over at a lunch, and it be weird to bring you along for that lunch. Like there’s a million different reasons why you’re not invited in some of those pitch meetings. Again, the biggest thing that you should concern yourself with is just finding out who it went to. And, you know, keep track of that. So you have that as part of your records, you know, like who did you talk to? So if someone says like, hey, we pitched it to VH1 and they passed because of X, or hey, we pitched it to oxygen and they passed because of X. Like, that’s important for you to know. Don’t worry about who was in the room or did it happen at a lunch or a meeting or whatever. Just get the information as to what the certain reasons were, why somebody may have passed or, you know, hey, there was interest at the initial level, but then the higher ups pass and here’s why. So that that’s really kind of the important stuff. As to sitting around and waiting for feedback like, welcome to our world. Like, you know, we’re right there with you. Like, I sometimes I feel horrible that I, you know, that we can’t give feedback to the people we’ve partnered up with because they’re waiting around and it’s like, yep, I’m waiting around, too. Like, sometimes that just what it takes, honestly. You know, one of the gripes that we have in this business is like, you know, we’d rather have a quick no than just as long drawn out. Maybe that then usually ends in a no anyway, but that’s just not how the game works. That’s just not how certain executives work or certain networks. Usually by the time you pitch, then they have internal meetings or projects get presented, but usually those are 1 or 2 weeks away. Then by the time that gets around, you might get a quick no. Or if at that point somebody there might still be interested, then they go to another meeting and oh my goodness. It is such a like too many chefs in the kitchen, too many sheep chiefs at the table. Like it’s insane. But we try to get an answer as quick as possible. You know, our agents are CAA, and they’re usually able to just, you know, push, push for an answer. But again, sometimes it just takes time. And let me tell you whether or not it’s a project that we do ourselves or it’s a project that someone brings us, that we partner up on. The time it takes to get the answers is the exact same. So I guess my advice is.

Biagio: I have to.

Joke: Pitch it and forget it.

Biagio: You know, pitch it and forget it. I’m going to link to in the in the show notes for this is episode 73 by the way. So producing unscripted 073, you’ll be able to find the post that goes along with this. I’m going to link to a post we did a long time ago called Showbiz is Slow Biz. Yes. And here’s the cure. The cure? Honestly, the cure for sitting around and waiting. You just got to get started on your next three, 4 or 5 projects. Because what happens is you get a pipeline, you’re constantly developing, you’re constantly teaming up on projects, you’re constantly pitching new things. And then finally, that one project that you teamed up on almost a year ago. When you hear back, it’s exciting news because you almost forgot about it, because you’re so busy dealing with the next three, four, five that that you’re doing. And you have to get there for your sanity, for your sanity. And you’ve said this before, one idea is not enough for your sanity. You need to constantly be moving on to the next thing. You need to leapfrog those goals. You need to leapfrog those projects. You got this one. You pass it off. Now you’re wholeheartedly into the next one. If you find that you’re sitting around waiting and that that is what’s dominating most of your thought process, you will go crazy. And the cure is to start on your next project. Remember, it’s a numbers game. The more you pitch, the better your odds, which means you constantly need to be developing. And when you’re doing that, it makes the waiting game easier because you’re not sitting around waiting to hear about the project that’s out being pitched or being considered or whatever. You’re too busy thinking about the next one and working on the next 2 or 3 or 4 or 5.

Joke: What he said. Yeah, so should I. Should I wrap it up? Should I, should I summarize?

Biagio: I think you should wrap it up, honey.

Joke: All right. So how long should a option agreement shopping agreement, collaboration agreement B would say the standard is about 12 months. Sometimes that goes down to nine months depending on the time of year. I would say if the materials are already go set, everything looks great. No extra work needs to be done in terms of developing the agreement, developing the show. Then you probably can get it down the six six months. To me, it’s all about the relationship. You know, I want this to be a good if you pitch and you collaborate with us, we want it to be a good fit. If it’s not, I totally understand. It needs to be a two way street. So you need to you need to trust the people that you’re teaming up with. You need to know that once it’s gone out there and it’s been pitched everywhere, that it’s not like you can just hand it to a new producer and they’re magically going to be able to make a sell. I truly believe that, you know, once you get to a certain level of a production company and they’re reputable and they do good work, that, you know, it doesn’t matter which of the two companies brings in the project. If the project is strong enough, it’ll sell. So you know where you were. The production company is important is how the whole thing gets packaged and how it’s put together. Right? So that’s why just hearing a producer say your project is ready to be pitched doesn’t necessarily mean that’s true. Ask the extra questions. Really figure out which networks, what are their contacts, what are their trying to do with it? What is their ultimate goal for the show and for your working relationship on it? And yes, you probably will not be part of some of the initial meetings. Again, it depends of your credits. It depends on what you’re able to add into the meeting, what you’re able to bring to that. But again, some meetings, it just might be awkward because of previous relationships or because they’re lunches or whatever. And as to just sitting around and waiting for feedback, that is absolutely going to be the case. It’s still the case for us. So take advice and, you know, pitch and forget it and just keep working on the next one.

Biagio: Yes. And as always, if you have hopes of possibly doing a shopping agreement with us, a collaboration agreement or whatever, we all decide to call it together, you know that we do accept pitches through our portal. In order to pitch to us. You must be on our newsletter is how I, black people, the black male people to get them on our newsletter, just go to producing unscripted. Com sign up for the newsletter and follow the directions. We will be back in two weeks. Thank you to all of you for being patient with us. We were so extraordinarily busy last time and blessed to be so. We are in production on many TV shows at the moment, which are going to start airing soon, and we can’t wait to tell you about them. It’s been a very exciting year so far at Joe Productions, so thank you all again and I’d like to personally, once again, as always, be a cheese ball and thank my wife not only for being amazing, not only for being beautiful, not only for being way out of my league, but for carrying this episode on her shoulders because I can barely breathe. I love you, honey.

Unidentified Voice: I love you too. Say good night.

Biagio: Good night everyone, by bye bye.

Unidentified Voice: Producing Unscripted with Joke and BiagioGeo.