Producing Documentaries with Sundance Fellow Amanda Spain

Biagio: Hey, everybody. She’s joke. She’s Biagio. We’re married. We make unscripted film and television and want to help you do the same.

Joke: Hopefully by teaming up with us.

Biagio: All right. Well, welcome to episode 91. Just nine away from 100. My, it’s coming on like a freight train. That’s a story for another day. Today we are so excited to be here with one of our all time favorite producers and current Sundance fellow. Very fancy. Amanda, Spain. Amanda.

Amanda Spain: Hi, everyone. Hi.

Biagio: You are part of our Joke Productions family for a while now.

Amanda Spain: For years y’all.

Joke: For years. And one time I was lying. So when we met Amanda, she was already a documentary. And she’s been. I want to say you’ve been doing documentaries your whole life, but how long have you been in this game?

Amanda Spain: I think technically, since 2005.

Joke: All right. So you coming up on 12 years?

Biagio: Yeah, yeah. So this.

Joke: Wasn’t.

Biagio: A decade? Yeah. This is somebody. Sundance fellow makes documentaries. And so what we wanted to talk about today and why we wanted to have Amanda on is because so many people, one ask us about feature documentaries to realize their TV show really should be a documentary. And three just have misconceptions about how the documentary world works. How do you make documentaries when you sell them?

Joke: And let’s be honest. I mean, we made a doc that did this circuit festival circuit, and I think it was 2011, so wow, that’s six years ago already.

Biagio: I know man.

Joke: Time flies. Time does fly. So, you know, we didn’t know much about it.

Biagio: You know we did. And by the way, like by most accounts, like we fairly successful. We got lucky, we got distributed.

Amanda Spain: Had the most successful Kickstarter campaign ever.

Biagio: Well, I don’t know about.

Amanda Spain: That.

Biagio: But but we did good. We got in documents, we qualified, you know, we qualified for Academy Award consideration and we got distribution, which is I mean, getting distribution is really hard for a doc. Never see a diamond, a documentary. We’ll never make our money back.

Joke: We’re in the whole six figures on that one. So. But but that’s the story for another day. I think the main thing here is, you know, we talk a lot about passion projects and, you know, like Biagio said, sometimes a story you bring us or a character you bring us, it’s like there’s just not enough there, or there’s not enough of a story engine there to do multiple episodes or go back to that world week after week. So then we say, but maybe it’s a good documentary. But what does that mean? So we’re going to dig into a little bit into the documentary process. And so, Amanda, how do you find your stories or how do you decide to get involved in a documentary as a producer?

Amanda Spain: Okay. So for me, like, like and for you guys to I mean, it’s it’s sort of funny saying this to you, but it’s all about the story, right? If it’s a really good story and I can see it in a feature doc, then I’ll go for it because it can compel the audience to watch it for an hour and a half. I mean, and you don’t know, some people sometimes you think, oh, this is going to make an amazing documentary, and then you get into it and you’re like, oh, there’s not enough of a story here. And sometimes this little nugget of a story like you’re like, oh, maybe, maybe, maybe. And then as it develops, you’re like, Holy cow, I was about to. Cause like. Oh, this is a real compelling, driving narrative, but it has to have a narrative. And I think that’s what sometimes documentary, budding documentary filmmakers forget is that it still has to have a narrative. It still has to have a story structure. It still has to have an arc.

Joke: A beginning middle.

Amanda Spain: Yeah.

Joke: Like you want to end the movie in a different place than you started. And the characters in the movie ideally are in a different.

Amanda Spain: Unless you’re doing an art doc, which I have seen a few of those that are really compelling, but for the most part. Those are not going to attract a large audience.

Biagio: Like Helvetica.

Amanda Spain: I’ve seen Helvetica.

Biagio: I like.

Amanda Spain: How.

Biagio: Is it entirely documentary about a font, but I assume that that counts as an art doc, right?

Joke: You know, you’re a nerd, which we are when you watch two hours on one font.

Amanda Spain: Right? Right, right. But did it have an arc? No. Well, no, but it’s the history.

Joke: Of the font.

Amanda Spain: So there’s some. So there’s an arc to like.

Joke: Guys who came up with it, how it got sold, why it became popular. How anyway.

Amanda Spain: Sorry. I mean. That’s the thing. I mean, there’s like there’s of documentary, right? There’s historical docs, there’s verité docs, there’s social issue docs. I mean, so it’s not like they all fall into one category. I personally am drawn to a documentary that has a narrative to it that I can relate to, or has a universal appeal.

Joke: Right. And there’s, you know, there’s the past tense storytelling docs, right? Where it’s like, this is already all happened. And so we’re really telling it with archival and maybe some new found footage or new things that make it special. And then there are the docs where you’re actively following something and you don’t know how it’s going to end. And those are the ones where like halfway through, like, whoops.

Amanda Spain: Yeah.

Joke: Nothing’s happening or oh my God, I just hit on the greatest thing ever.

Amanda Spain: Yeah, yeah. Yes yes yes. It’s all true. So but because of that.

Joke: Like how many docs are you kind of working on at the same time? Like how many docs are you working on right now?

Amanda Spain: Okay. So I, you know, I have a bunch of balls in the air as far as docs, and they’re all at very different places. Right. And I work here. Yeah. So but I have, I think right now currently that are like real on some stage for documentaries.

Joke: Right.

Amanda Spain: And most.

Joke: Documentary producers, you know, are in the process of working on more than one doc. Right. Because they just like, how long does it usually take.

Amanda Spain: So. So this is going to be the big part. So everyone knows most documentaries take years I think I have one I mean I have friends who we know. We mutual friends who worked on a documentary for over ten years. Six years. I’m on one that is I think it’s fifth year. So, I mean, they take a long time. If you’re going to do a documentary, you better be in for the long haul, right?

Joke: Yeah, yeah. I mean, so our documentary, which we did everything on shot at, directed, edited all of it, that took over six years. So yeah it’s absolutely that. And so that’s.

Amanda Spain: Also where the.

Joke: Joy comes in though. Right. Because we were following our friend obviously. And we’re like we have no idea how this going to end because it was like we’re following it real time. But like you said, you have to kind of like nudge that stuff. You find a kernel of a story, and then you see if there’s more and more and some of them. When do you like go of a project? When you’re like, okay, there’s nothing here. I got to move on. I don’t have enough time for this.

Amanda Spain: I don’t. That’s a great question. I don’t know if I’ve done that yet. Yeah, I don’t think I have. So I don’t know if I think I would let go if I really thought, well, I. Think you shall.

Joke: Things you’re like, let me look at the story again until.

Amanda Spain: You I think. No, I think I have done is look at it to go in a different direction, like a doc might make a good TV series and therefore it might be packaged differently. It’s not going to be a compelling documentary. You know, I’ve done that so far, but I haven’t. I would shelve it, though. I mean, I don’t know. Do you ever shelve documentary? That’s a really great that’s a good existential question because like, I don’t know. Well.

Joke: Because, you know, we talked about like with Dana on the casting podcast where it’s like you find a piece of talent and you’re like, they’re not a TV show right now, but let me stay in contact. And five years from now, maybe something happens in their life that would make it perfect, you know, for to have a TV show, follow them where, you know, you might have a story. I feel like in In the Dark World where, like, there might not be that much interest right now, but, you know, then all of a sudden an election happened or all of a sudden something changes in the world that now makes that story relevant.

Amanda Spain: Right? So yeah. So I think you could shelve them then and then I mean also, you know, it ebbs and flows, how much work I put into it. If something’s taking a long time and we’re not seeing the, you know, it’s incremental things that we have to do. So it’s like if we’re trying right now on what I’m trying to raise post funds. And that’s been that we had got through production with our funds, and we’ve been trying to raise funds for a long time. And and that’s been our biggest challenge. And we still are doing grants. And we almost get to the final. We always get to the final. It’s like, so we keep doing it.

Joke: So that brings me to great next point. Funds.

Amanda Spain: How do you.

Joke: Fund documentaries. So you talked about raising funds and like where are you getting them grants private talk about that process.

Amanda Spain: So I have gotten my funds through every which way. So I’ve done a lot of fundraisers which take a lot of time and are a lot of work for the amount of money you normally end up getting.

Joke: It was a fundraiser.

Amanda Spain: You mean like. So like on. One project we had where, you know, we gave like, we got door prizes and open bar and you know, we had people donate. We had to get the venue like, I think we paid for it, but not a lot of money. And then we invited all of our friends. And it’s also about building your audience. Fundraisers are really about that. But, you know, we invited all our friends. We did pretty well like we did okay. But it’s definitely not where you want to get the majority of your money because. Because that’s a couple of thousands of dollars. Yeah. It’s not. It’s not. And then grants.

Joke: Which the grand process is.

Biagio: Easy, right. You just say, hey, can you give me some money. And they do.

Amanda Spain: The grand process is so hard you have to. Well, they’ve actually made it recently. Made it easier. I mean, like, literally two weeks ago, they made it easier. Now a bunch of the grants have actually combined their application. So you only have to do it once. Wow. Yes. So our lives have changed because up until I think it was like two weeks or a month ago, we would literally have to do a separate application for everyone. And those take so long. I. Is there a.

Joke: Skill to writing good grants proposals?

Amanda Spain: Yeah, I don’t know if I’ve mastered it. Yeah, there’s definitely a skill to I mean, because, you know, you have to tell it, like if you’re a visual storyteller and you’re not a writer, say you have to tell your visual story on paper and make it just as compelling on paper as you do on the film. Right? You know, and sometimes people are in their heads, like, if you’re a director writing it, you it’s and I think it’s such a good thing to learn to because it makes you as the director or the producer, get your vision onto the paper and get clear about what you’re going to make, right. You know.

Joke: And so, like, what’s kind of an average grant or, you know, I mean, obviously there’s big, big grants. But, you know, if you’re, you know, Joe Schmo, documentary filmmaker, I think I have a great story. I’m writing the Ford Foundation.

Amanda Spain: Right. Well, that Ford Foundation, if you got a Ford grant, that would be epic. And you would I mean, I don’t know the exact numbers, but so, so pretty good.

Joke: So which foundations are like for good first time documentarians?

Amanda Spain: Let me think about that.

Biagio: For those who can’t see her face, she looks like she’s thinking really hot. She just looked.

Amanda Spain: Up at the sky going.

Joke: Oh my goodness.

Amanda Spain: I mean, I think if you’re a first time documentary filmmaker, which I have been, right, so I think you just apply to them all and get your rejections, do you know what I mean? And a lot of them will give feedback, like if you apply to ITVs, which is the public television grant, or if you’re a Latino filmmaker and you want to apply to LPB, they will give you feedback. I don’t know if they do it off the first round, but they do it after the second round. So you know, you can get feedback from some of your grants that you apply for, which I think is super helpful because I learned so much in that process. But yeah, I mean, you know, you can go online and find there’s like so many I mean, there’s actually a lot out there. It’s just the thing is you’re competing against seasoned filmmakers, you know? So that’s the thing you have to be aware of is like you’re a competing against some of your bigger name documentary filmmakers too.

Joke: And like hundreds of them. Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Spain: Yes, yes. Yeah. But it’s.

Joke: Like, what do you get like 15, 20, 50?

Amanda Spain: I mean, go from 6000. We recently on one I’m producing. We got a $6,000 grant. It was actually our first grant. And we were super stoked. We were like, yeah, we got a grant to I think I think you can even get funded up to 350 on grants 350,000.

Joke: Does one grant get another grant. Yes. So so.

Amanda Spain: You get one.

Joke: First one. Yeah for sure. Like anything.

Biagio: So you’re on your way to Ford Foundation now.

Amanda Spain: I hope so.

Joke: So you got funds, right. But you talked earlier like it’s in stages. Right. So you’re getting funds for like some research and you’re getting funds to get the movie and the can. Right. And then you’re getting funds for posts and then you need funds for distribution and marketing.

Amanda Spain: I find that for first time filmmakers, if that’s what we’re talking to right now, like, I don’t know, because I don’t if you’re talking to a first time documentary filmmaker, I feel like if you I mean, if you have a camera in the time or the will, you can get through production on almost nothing. Yes, it’s the post that’s going to it’s going to like always. It’s the post that’s going to stop you. So it’s finding finishing funds and first time directors have a really hard time finding finishing funds. So if you really think you have an amazing story and you have footage to sort of back that up, I find a producer who’s done this before. If you’re a first time director, because a producer who’s done it before can help you get to that next step, because they’re not going to give a first time director with no producer on money. They’re just not.

Joke: Because it might go down the drain. They don’t know if it actually will get used properly.

Amanda Spain: And I mean, they’re not going to make a ton of money on your project anyway. So they’re certainly not just going to hand out the dough.

Joke: You mean there’s not a lot of money to be made.

Amanda Spain: In documentary? Let’s say you.

Joke: You finish it and somehow now you submit it to festivals and you get in. What do you hope to see? Do you hope to get your money back? Do you hope to?

Amanda Spain: Well, I mean, so this year at Sundance, it’s very publicized right now that two documentaries sold for like, we saw numbers we’d never seen before. And it changes the I don’t know what it’s going to do for the landscape going forward. Like, I don’t know, that’s a whole new number.

Joke: Well, we’d have to see if those if the companies who put up that money are going to see a return on it, or at least feel like it was a worthy investment, even if they don’t actually get cash from it, if it helps them their profile, or get in business with a filmmaker they really wanted to be in.

Amanda Spain: But just everybody knows that’s not normal. What is? Well.

Joke: We.

Biagio: Have a friend that’s like people who think that Blair Witch was normal. Right, right, right.

Joke: And we have a friend, a mutual friend who had a very high profile documentary ascendance, a couple of years ago with celebrities. And she had put in years and lots of dollars of her own correct into it. And she, you know, still didn’t make a money like the money back. So it doesn’t, you know, it doesn’t there’s nothing guarantee.

Amanda Spain: Right? No, nothing’s guaranteed. But that’s the thing. It’s like like it is a changing landscape. So it is like, hey, just don’t just want.

Biagio: To put it on vibrate. So you were saying about that changing landscape.

Amanda Spain: I think I mean, I think though what’s also happening, though, because these two films in particular are really good films and have the potential to have an audience, whereas a lot of documentaries didn’t like documentaries are getting better. Yes. So people are more people are watching documentaries. So the more people who watch documentaries, the more money they’re going to make.

Joke: And in a weird way, reality television has helped in that.

Amanda Spain: That’s probably true. That is probably.

Joke: Because I definitely feel like even six years ago when we were touring the festivals, like people were like documentary. I’m not. I don’t even want to be bothered. Like, you know, most mainstream people just sort of like, you’re going to drag me to a documentary. And then they went and they were like, wow, it was amazing. And I had a cathartic experience, and I laughed and I had fun, and I learned things and I cried, and I had all the same emotions as if you would go to a narrative film and they’re like, oh, maybe documentaries aren’t so bad. And I think that now that there’s more, you know, quality like documentaries, even on television, that people are sampling, that they’re like, oh, you know, there is, there is, there is a space for that. And I think the mainstream audience is becoming less scared of it.

Amanda Spain: Yeah. And they’re also on platforms now that people watch. Right.

Joke: The streaming has helped.

Amanda Spain: A lot, whereas they used to be only in theaters or only on PBS or I mean, I don’t I don’t know if that’s actually true.

Joke: Or VHS tapes at the store. You’re not going to.

Amanda Spain: But now they’re in cool places like Netflix and Amazon and HBO and, you know, all the places that make things cool.

Joke: And they’re easier to sample. You know, it’s like a, you know, you don’t have to invest money to see if you’re going to like it. You can start it in ten minutes later, you can just turn it off. That’s right. As opposed to going to the movie theater and like, you know, spending $14 of your money.

Amanda Spain: Yeah, exactly.

Biagio: So which, by the way, I’d be happy for them to spend $14 on these poor filmmakers work. I mean, it’s like I want to say, hey, just give it all away.

Joke: I think people are now more open to doing that because they’ve had a chance to sample the jar. Yeah, I feel like the documentary genre is less scary. But I mean, look at this year, right? O.J. Simpson Made in America just won the Oscar and it was on ESPN. So, you know, is your middle America sports loving audience who watch football, you know, watched a documentary on race relations in America, let’s call it what it is. Right, right. You know what I mean? That now won an Oscar. So maybe next time when, you know, the Academy works like these are nominees, people be like, oh, I like the last year’s.

Amanda Spain: Although ESPN did get people into watching docs, like, on a religious basis more than others have.

Biagio: Well, and you’ve worked with ESPN.

Amanda Spain: I have. Yes.

Biagio: That’s going to be another another day. But when we talk about sports doc.

Amanda Spain: A seven hour movie.

Biagio: The seven hour movie, that is hard. It’s hard to win an Oscar for a seven hour movie. It makes other documentarians who kill themselves for ten years to make a 90 minute doc go, oh.

Joke: He’s not so. So, Sundance, what does it mean to be a Sundance fellow? How did you become a dance fellow and what you were at the Sundance Film Festival this year? You know, what did you observe? What did you learn?

Biagio: That’s a lot of questions. Start with start with your your your your elevated position in life as a right.

Amanda Spain: How you got. I can barely walk on the ground. I became okay. So when I applied to be a dance fellow, you were nominated by a person. And I have a very good friend of mine who loves me and was nice to me and nominated me, you know. And then I went through the application process. It was a three tiered process, and a whole time along the way you’re like, nah, I’m never gonna make it. I’m never going to. I think even said to you, I was like, but, you know, then I did, and it was, you know, it was amazing. And you go for a week long fellowship with advisors and people who’ve been doing this a lot longer than I have and taught me a lot. Like it was like a week long course of independent documentary film producing. It was amazing. And they really focused on the producers like that. It’s a creative producing fellowship. It’s like they really focus on elevating the producer. And because producers do a lot of work as we know and don’t take a lot of the glory, which is fine, we’re all fine with that. That’s what we signed up for. But it’s like trying to get producers elevated, you know, to really to really claim their power, so to speak. Right. That’ll be something silly when I say it, but but it’s true. And then so then it’s been a year it’s a year long fellowship and they’re just really like, you know, on you to just become a better producer. And they really do seminars and things to help you become that.

Biagio: And what are like the three best things you learned as part of your fellowship?

Amanda Spain: Well, I so for me, I think it’s all individual because some people are all different levels, right. But for me, I didn’t like the business part as far as the new ways, the whole new distribution landscape was completely foreign to me. You know, windows and all these distribution levels and how you can, you know, how you make these deals. And that was completely new for me. And then, you know, equity investment is a new because we didn’t get to equity investment for, for like you can get equity investors.

Biagio: And what is equity investment for people who don’t know.

Amanda Spain: So that’s basically like someone puts in money and they expect money back. So you know they put in the money and they expect they want their money back and a percentage back.

Biagio: Silly them.

Amanda Spain: Right.

Joke: Well listen take it so so yeah. So then the idea is they put in let’s say $100,000. Your film sells for 150. They get their 100 back first before you see anything else.

Amanda Spain: Right? I mean, we get all of our production costs. Yeah. But yeah that’s what you would do. And so that was a whole you know, I haven’t dealt I hadn’t really dealt much with that in my life. So I guess those were the two biggest thing. And then meet the people you meet, the connections you make. I mean, you know, that’s obviously. Yeah. She was business.

Joke: Hobnobbing in Park City.

Biagio: Yes.

Amanda Spain: Hobnobbing where I got the flu. The Sundance flu.

Biagio: What did you see in terms of like what people are looking at right, right now in town? And where’s the business headed in documentaries right now?

Amanda Spain: Well, I don’t know if I’m qualified to answer that question, but I will.

Biagio: Say more so than quickly.

Joke: Because you’re working on quote unquote happier documentaries.

Amanda Spain: Yeah. I mean, I’ve got both, right? So it’s like but I definitely think, well, it’s hard to know to it could shift this year. I don’t. So I think people were looking to for some inspirational, funny, some levity and storytelling for documentaries. I think they’re definitely looking for that. I mean, you’re always going to have a market for social issue documentaries, you know, educational documentaries.

Joke: Climate documentaries.

Amanda Spain: Climate documentaries are always, always going to. I think there was a number of those at Sundance this year, and I think, I think rural America documentaries are going to be a direction that I feel. I hear we’re going in. But yeah, here’s what I truly believe. I believe if there is a documentary genre out there for you, if you like documentaries or if you don’t, if you don’t like documentaries, you can find one that you’ll like right in some way that you like.

Joke: Okay, so not to put you on the spot, give me like a wide range of documentaries that people should check out.

Amanda Spain: Okay. Well, one of my favorites is dig, dig! Exclamation point. It’s a verité doc that follows The Dandy Warhols and The Brian Jonestown Massacre on their rise to success as bands musical bands. It’s literally probably my favorite documentary. Oh, the Internet’s Own Boy. Unbelievable documentary made by, I don’t know, Brian Berger was the producer on it. It’s about one of the guys who created Reddit and his journey. It’s amazing. The Whitey CNN documentary is excellent, which is.

Joke: I think it was James Whitey Bulger versus the United States or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was a great kind of doc debt had both kind of like past tense, like retelling of everything that had happened. And like, the present tense is a great hook, right? Because it was present tense following of the trial. But then the trial allowed you to go back in time. Yeah. And learn about.

Amanda Spain: That was an entertaining documentary, but it also had some historical perspective. Right? Yeah. One of my other favorite hands on a hard body. Have you seen that one?

Joke: Is that the one.

Amanda Spain: With the truck?

Joke: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amanda Spain: It’s in Texas where everybody, in order to win a truck, puts their hands on a hard body, and whoever is the last person standing wins the truck. It’s probably one of the most amazing documentaries I’ve seen.

Biagio: So now for people listening, you know, a lot of people will often pitch our shows and we’ll say it really feels like a feature doc to us. And obviously we don’t have the bandwidth right now to invest five, six, seven years and helping someone else do their passion project, you know, most of the time. So what do you say to the people who are considering whether or not there idea is a doc? And should they, should they go forward like. Like what? What advice do you have for people that are teetering on the edge and not sure, maybe you’ve never even made anything and a brand new to it is like, but think that they have the story they want to tell.

Amanda Spain: I think I think too, like I think a couple things. If you really have a story you want to tell and I mean, if you really want to tell it, then you’re going to tell it. Like if you like. Everyone has access almost. I don’t want to say everyone because some people don’t. But a lot of people have access to cameras of some sort at this point in our lives. If it’s not your phone, camera or some form of a camera, I mean, you know, we all know about Sugarman. I mean, you know, who knows if that’s all true, the myth behind it. But a lot of it was shot on the iPhone. Right? So, I mean, if you have a camera, shoot your story and then find keep talking to people and find, I mean, I’ll tell you, there’s a story out there right now that I want of a director who’s working on something that’s super compelling story. She doesn’t have a producer, first time director. She’s shooting it right now, and I’m, like, keeping my eyes on it, because I think that there’s huge potential in this story.

Biagio: Right now. How has. Honestly.

Joke: How did you find her?

Amanda Spain: I found her at a meetup thing, so she didn’t know documentary people already.

Joke: So because if you know, if you’re the person Biagio is talking about, you know who has this idea, whatever. And, you know, takes your advice to start shooting stuff like, how does that person meet up with a producer?

Amanda Spain: Right. So say if they’re in like Peoria, my three like, so I mean, that’s I think the so I think if you’re in Peoria I think you what I would do like if there’s a will there’s a way you shoot it yourself and you go to the local college and you find some editing student because there’s got to be one. There’s got to be some form of a film program. There’s some little guy or woman in the their basement editing stuff and ask them to do it for you, you know, and they’ll probably do it for like, it’s amazing how much people will do for free if they.

Joke: Care about.

Amanda Spain: The story. Yeah.

Biagio: About the story.

Joke: And that’s a great thing I think about documentaries is because a lot of times people care and they get invested, even if it’s a happy thing in either the story or the characters in it. And you know, where it’s like, oh, I’m making independent film. I wrote it myself. You’re like, okay, you know where I think it might be easier to get people invested and do you that favor and work with you or partner with you?

Biagio: I mean, I think, you know, for me, this is my personal opinion, and I know you kind of hinted at this, and not everybody can get a camera or an editing system. Sure. But I think that by and large, today it’s so different than it was ten years ago. Right. And I kind of feel like if you’re remotely serious about making a documentary, you can find a way to get your hands on a camera and some old computer that will edit your footage, because it’s not like you’re doing CG, you know, VFX, and it’s not like you’re doing all kinds of crazy stuff. But that also leads to kind of like my next question, which is like, I do feel like ten years ago, somebody could kind of pick up a camera and maybe not be the best shooter or the best editor and make a documentary, and it could end up in theaters. It didn’t it didn’t look, it didn’t have to look super polished. Do you feel like that has changed? Yeah. Now, because of the proliferation of technology and like when you’re at Sundance, I mean, I could be wrong. I wasn’t there this year, but I don’t feel like you’re you’re seeing stuff that looks like somebody grabbed their uncle’s camcorder and it was cut together. Tape the tape between two VCRs, you know, and then smoothed out later.

Amanda Spain: Yeah, I agree with that. I think I do think one of the things is, is that the art form of documentary is elevated, been elevated. And I do think where is it used to be able to say it was the story that mattered, whereas I feel like now that’s less. So I do feel like I mean, some of the like a lot of the documentaries have, I mean, talk about cinematic like you’re like also, though, the cameras today make it easier. So it’s not like we’re talking about, you know, I can shoot something that looks like a little bit better than I.

Joke: On a DSLR rather than a $50,000 Alexa.

Amanda Spain: Right, right. So but I do know that I do know of stories, and I can’t remember the name of this one right now of people who have told stories if it’s really compelling. I mean, I never saw did you see Wolf Pack, the one about the kids who were like, living in that apartment in New York? You know, I haven’t seen the whole I haven’t seen it. So but I think it was like a lot of home video footage. So I do think if if it’s a compelling story.

Biagio: It’s not impossible.

Amanda Spain: It’s not possible. But it’s hard.

Biagio: It’s hard.

Joke: But I also think like again, it’s a staged process. Right? We talked about so many different stages. If you are just starting out in Peoria, shoot it on your iPhone, get the local college kid to do it, and that should be good enough to get yourself a producer who then can help you get it better, whatever that is. By shooting prettier B-roll to go in between the stuff or wrap around or, you know, to help at that point and then elevate it, whether that’s just visually or also through like composer or archival ads and all of that stuff. I mean, there’s ways to take what is there and then elevate it. You know, I guess I what I’m saying is, if you’re super passionate about a story, like she said, there’s a will, there’s a way like, don’t let don’t let your lack of I’m not a, you know, world class DP stop you from going to.

Biagio: Fight the country. I’m saying it’s never been easier to get your hands on technology. That’s way better than we had than years ago and way cheaper.

Amanda Spain: Yeah. And I think it’s like and like a lot of people, more people are technically savvy than we used to be. I mean, like, I can kind of edit now if I have to. I mean, I’m not an editor, but like, if I had to, I could do it, you know? So I think that’s it.

Joke: And I think also because we talked about how hard it is to do documentaries and how many years it takes. And, you know, the upside is not really financial. You know, only if you’re the great exception. It is that, you know, you just it just either has to be in you to keep doing it, to not do it. Otherwise.

Amanda Spain: Well, I think every like those people who make their one passion project, if it’s really your passion project, you’re going to finish it. I think the difference is if you want to be a documentary filmmaker right, then I think then you have to sort of do. There’s two routes. There’s the passion project. That’s your one passion project that you’re just going to finish. And then I want to be a documentary filmmaker. This is what I want my life to be. Well that’s different. So those are two different routes. So the passion.

Joke: Project keeps you going in the middle of the night because of your passion. Right? So when you’re the documentary producer and you’re like five years in and like, it’s just not moving forward. How do you keep yourself motivated to keep it going?

Amanda Spain: Right. Because the story so damn good. Yeah. If the story wasn’t good, I wouldn’t keep myself.

Joke: Do you have passion for the story? Yeah.

Amanda Spain: Yeah, yeah.

Biagio: You have to. You have to find passion for anything you’re going to do. If you’re going to finish it, you have to find that.

Amanda Spain: But it’s also when it’s going to hit because like, you know, I might be producing something about, you know, the CIA, which I’m doing right now. And although I feel like it’s always relevant, but like there are times when things become more relevant and people all of a sudden you’re like, oh, I really need a CIA project, right? And, you know, and in that moment I’ll will be there, like, here you go. Here’s your CIA project.

Biagio: It’s like screenwriters who have a bunch of screenplays in a drawer that weren’t right when they first wrote them, and they dust them off ten years later and they sell them because suddenly, at.

Joke: A time, yeah. No one’s buying rom coms necessarily right now. And it was really hot.

Amanda Spain: Whatever the true crime thing.

Joke: Or the true crime thing. Yes, yes. Now all of a sudden we’re producing so much true crime.

Biagio: Yeah. True crime. I mean, listen, Unforgiven right set and Clint Eastwood’s drawer for like ten years. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s it’s. Yeah. It’s all, it’s always about what’s right when.

Amanda Spain: Yeah. So that’s.

Biagio: So, so so to wrap things up and hopefully in a positive note, I mean I guess what we’ve hit on is making documentaries is hard. It takes a long time. You won’t make any money and probably no one’s going to give you any money to do it, but they’re obviously extremely creative.

Joke: How you took this.

Amanda Spain: I took this.

Joke: As.

Amanda Spain: There’s a way. There is my message. Thank you Joe, but the.

Biagio: I’m saying I’m tearing down. I’m saying this, you might think about all these things and it might scare you away. And if it does, maybe you should be.

Joke: Scared to be that.

Biagio: Yeah, it was meant to be. But if you hear those things and you’re like, no, I want to be like Amanda. Like, I have a passion for this. I’m going to tell these stories no matter what. There is a path in there is a way to make it happen. You just can’t. You can’t be one of these people that wants overnight success.

Amanda Spain: It’s.

Joke: I think what we’re saying is there is a way is just a lot of hard work and like tenacity.

Amanda Spain: You are going to have to work hard, right? And it’s hard work, but it’s rewarding. And at the end of the day, you get to tell stories.

Joke: Yeah, exactly.

Biagio: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking time away from your busy.

Amanda Spain: Hiring.

Joke: Me for four.

Biagio: Years, for.

Amanda Spain: A year.

Biagio: Or we’re just glad that we can steal you away from your very busy and important Sundance fellowship. It’s so nice to have you here, not just on the podcast, but in the building. You are an awesome producer.

Amanda Spain: And.

Biagio: We love working with you. And and I hope that everybody really got a lot out of hearing you today. Because while me and joke have worked in documentary like, I think we consider ourselves television producers first. So I think it’s important for people to hear from someone like you who really, truly consider yourself a documentary filmmaker.

Joke: And it doesn’t get higher than a Sundance fellow.

Biagio: It doesn’t get hired.

Joke: That’s right.

Amanda Spain: I mean, I mean, hello.

Joke: Unless you’re like me or.

Biagio: I mean, you’re basically sitting there sipping martinis like Jolie.

Amanda Spain: I was with Angelina Jolie as she was making her doc rounds. It was like, no, that did not happen at all.

Joke: Well, you are with other big shots that have money, so that was good.

Amanda Spain: People with money are good. That’s how we make our stuff. Yeah. Money matters.

Joke: Money matters. You know? I mean, listen, there’s like ten people in this business that, you know, made a name in documentaries that can, you know, like you said, have have now kind of a pipeline where people bring them ideas and they can just jump on the next big thing and then big thing. They’re not necessarily themselves putting six years into a certain topic anymore.

Amanda Spain: No, I think if Gibney wants to make a documentary, Gibney makes a documentary, and it probably doesn’t take him very long.

Joke: And also listen, the Armstrong one, right. Like if you if you just like I’m going to do an Armstrong documentary like that shouldn’t take you six years. If you have the access, just make it. Exactly. You know, production wise, you know, just looking at a production calendar, you’re like, I could do this in three months, you know what I mean? Shooting it and then take another six months to edit it and you’re good to go where? Then there’s other documentaries where that are investigative, where it takes longer to get certain things. But anyway, even those people, you know, let’s call it what it is, they all have production companies who are making money now making television shows. That’s right.

Amanda Spain: That’s right. And that’s you know what? We should not let that, like I have to say, not only has television, I mean, working in television has made me a better storyteller. And I want documentary people out there to hear me. And I’m talking to the documentary people who are documentary people now who have been working in it like television. It can make can make you a better storyteller, like, you know, so sometimes people Pooh Pooh it.

Biagio: You’re kidding.

Amanda Spain: Wait.

Joke: And I think the good news is, I think that some of that is changing because the jimmies of the world are doing, you know, TV and Morgan.

Amanda Spain: Spurlock does TV. I mean, people are doing and documentary. Here’s the thing. We’re all making each other better. Yes, TVs making documentary, better documentaries making TV. But it’s like we’re all making each other better, because at the end of it all, we’re just telling stories.

Joke: Exactly.

Amanda Spain: So? So, yeah.

Biagio: So there you go. So for those of you who maybe are new to the podcast or, you know, you know, obviously me and joke, we we make television for a living. We started this podcast not just to share, you know, advice like this, but also to give people who listen a pipeline if they would like to pitch to us. You don’t have to pitch to us. You can pitch anyone you want, but if you would like to pitch to us, to them, if you have an unscripted project you’d like to pitch to us, you just head over to Producing unscripted. Com, sign up for the newsletter and follow the directions. We don’t team up with tons of people, but we do try to respond to everybody who takes the time to submit. And, you know, and we always love to find new talent who want to work in unscripted, whatever, whatever the format. And we’ve met and teamed up with a lot of good people over the years, so maybe you’re next. Either way, we want to think, Amanda, so much for being here. We’ll be back in two weeks with episode 92. I don’t know if we’ll be able to top this one, though. It’s not every day you have a Sundance Fellow on your podcast, so.

Amanda Spain: You’re gonna laugh at this, by the way, especially my other fellows.

Biagio: Well, thank you so much for being here, for having me.

Joke: Awesome. See you guys in two weeks.

Biagio: Bye bye.

Announcer: Producing Unscripted with Joke and Biagio.